Karaoke Forums

The following posts originated on the thread from Birdsong, wishing to offer her collection of DK discs for sale:



Mr Staley,

I first want to say that relying upon your reasoning ---- "Just because you buy something from a legitimate 'store' doesn't make it legal"----- puts the whole economy at risk.

Consider the following:

I just received a 3-disc Chartbuster set that I PURCHASED on ebay at a regular price of $29.95 --- a real bargain. When the package arrived there were two other CB discs included that I had not ordered and had not paid for! That made me very suspicious. I immediately looked for the laser id # on the inner ring and found instead the TDK logo. Now, I was sure that I had received counterfeit merchandise. And notice I didn't say I had purchased counterfeit merchandise!

With the "iron being hot", I figured I could dispute the sale through PayPal or my Credit Card. But before filing any claim, I wanted to back up my observations with the help of Chartbuster. So I called them.

Chartbuster told me that since I had purchased the discs in GOOD FAITH that I had nothing to worry about and if they worked okay I really had no reason to go after the vendor. But I said it was a matter of principle.

They, of course, said that they wouldn't mind knowing who the vendor was. When I told them vendors name, CHARTBUSTER INFORMED ME THAT THE VENDOR WAS A LEGITIMATE VENDOR AND THAT THE DISCS WERE ORIGINALS EVEN THOUGH THE TRACKS WERE BURNED ON DISCS BEARING THE TDK LOGO!

And it is important to know that a really good counterfeiter could produce top-quality discs with lasered labels that even the manufacturer might have a hard time identifying as counterfeit!

IN short... you might have a product that is illegal but if you bought it and used it in good faith (not on a street corner) from an established business, you are doing nothing that is going to reflect upon your business or get you hauled into court... which makes me feel that the SCDG's that many of us have been acquiring are legal until someone PROVES otherwise by stopping the sale of said merchandise by LEGAL vendors!

I don't know what you think you can prove Mr Staley regarding illegal karaoke software, but I assure you that you cannot even be sure that the set of DK discs being offered are legal until you have them in your hands, Maybe?

And if you stop to think about it, as I alluded early on, much of what we do economically is based upon trust. I purchased a ring for my wife for Christmas. After I gave it to her, it needed to be re-sized. We went to another jeweler to do that and through the course of events at the 2nd jeweler we learned that the ring was NOT new. And while there wasn't anything in writing at the 1st jeweler stating that the ring was new, I expected that it would be! Wouldn't you?

SO, was the second jeweler correct or was he covering up a problem I had encountered with his work?

Perhaps the ring WAS stolen or maybe it was second hand or just abused/damaged? Did the first jeweler know that is was not new when he sold it to me or was there a mistake made by another person in the shop that confused matters? Meanwhile, I think I got a fair deal. So, was there thievery involved or not? If I went back to the 1st jeweler would he assert that I or the other jeweler had damaged the ring?

Was anything illegal done and could I prove it if there HAD been and by whom (first or second jeweler)? I never went back to the first jeweler!

And in making a business decision, if I have no reason to believe that something is illegal, whereas I did wonder about my recent ebay purchase, then it matters not to me what someone else may think about what is legal. And if it is a legal disc and I purchased it on a corner from some guy who stole it, it is now an illegal discs. And if it is a counterfeit purchased by me in good faith, it will hold up as "legal" to me while in my possession through most if not all court proceedings!

Tovmod;

Let's put this in perspective: We're not talking about Chartbusters, or anyone other than DKKARAOKE.

You should be fully aware that these tracks stopped being sold almost 11 years ago. If it was legal to continue selling them, then they would still be offered --perhaps by different vendors then right? (just like your chartbusters disc)

But they haven't. Now suddenly, they're available in SCDG format from who? Who is this "legit store" with the unreadable receipt?

If they ARE legal again, then SOMEONE would have had to RENEW the licenses with the copyright holders to extend them..... These licenses have fixed limits, they are not forever.

If I purchase a hard drive from a legitimate store in Egypt, or Belgium, or Mexico and have a receipt then by your logic it's perfectly legal right? Because after all, it's not MY business to care where the store got it, how it got it or anything else, I did MY part correctly by simply passing along the money...

Song Factory bought out the DK rights as far as I know shortly after DK got out. I haven't seen anything new from Song Factory in a while, but maybe they are the ones releasing? Don't know.

_________________
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Just as an FYI, Lonman is right Song factory aquired the Dk Rights, Eric Brown , who worked with DK, took the rights over, in the US, produced the applause, millenium, He lives in Phx and has assured me if someone is selling DK scdg's they are NOT legal as neither he nor DK has ever agreed , because scdg by its nature violates the law, only 30 max can be put on a cdg, or dvd, or any other media

DANG! I just KNEW there was a DRAWBACK to these SCDGS somewhere!!

I haven't purchased any but was quite tempted to buy and play karaoke-hobbyman and try and convert them for a new system i 'm putting together to keep myself busy... Oh well....gotta find something else "challenging" to do, !

Phxkj, could you please supply the statute that states that SCDG's are ILLEGAL. If they are inherently illegal because of their format, then I am SURE that there is NO SUCH THING as a LEGAL kj. Chartbuster has vol. 1-6 on SCDG, Nutech has vol. 1-3, and now DK has the millenium 1 & 2. If we keep going in this direction, and spouting that this is illegal, and that is illegal, NOBODY will know what to buy, and may just throw their hands up and say "If EVERYTHING I buy is ILLEGAL, I might as well buy a LOADED harddrive, as that is TRULY the best ILLEGAL deal around". As a matter of fact, some of the retailers that sponsor this forum SELL SCDG's. So, I guess they are selling ILLEGAL products also. This subject makes me want to .

Rosario

Seriously???? Phxkj said specifically that the DK SCDGs are illegal because the people selling them do not have the right to do so. If you put out a product you don't have the right to manufacture, you have, in fact, stolen it. I don't think we need a statute citation for that, do you? You appear to be looking for any excuse to call using this okay. Whatever...it's still a fish.

birdofsong

I have NO ulterior motive for finding out whether or not these are legal. But just because someone comes on an OPEN forum and says that they were told something by someone else is not MY idea of proof. Furthermore, I'm not looking for your or anyone elses approval in making MY decisions on what I want to buy. In addition, as far as SCDG being an illegal format, then Chartbuster is selling illegal products also, as well as Most of the main retailers, some of which are sponsored on this forum. These are not fly by night companies, or storefronts, but MAJOR karaoke music suppliers.

Rosario

The point is ..no one really knows. As we know many of the earlier discs manus didn't have licenses on a majority of their releases. I doubt many KJ's threw out those discs they paid $20 each for ?...Did you ?

How about the infamous Sc8125 Eagles Disc pulled because they lost the right OR never truly had the right on the 1st place ...Did anyone throw out that disc? NO WAY its now a rare collectors item even though its ILLEGAL ???

How about that singer that brings in his own burnt disc to play ...do you really know if its a legitimate copy of a PURCHASED disc? Do we or should we CARE ????

You go on a web site and buy a scdg of all Dk works ... Are you to POLICE the site ????

Yes, let's put the ENTIRE matter into perspective. In fact, we aren't really talking about CB or DK. We're talking about what your expectations are of other people when they purchase products. Srnitynow let you know, basically, what his "standards" are when making a purchase of karaoke tracks. You don't accept his "standards" while I find them reasonable.

Your standards include the requirement of having knowledge that I don't give a hoot about regarding manufacturers and copyright issues as you state in the following:
To repeat myself: Chartbuster told me that if I purchase Chartbuster discs in GOOD FAITH which turn out to be counterfeit, that there is nothing for me to be concerned about.

AND... during the same conversation with CB I raised questions regarding the CB Essential's volumes that are available on SCDG's and told the fellow I was interested in purchasing Vols 1-8. I asked about the SCDG's because Lone Wolf had related how easy it was to convert them to computer files and I began to wonder if the SCDG's might be "too good to be true", in spite of the fact that they are available through several legitimate vendors!

I was informed by Chartbuster that the SCDG discs are available only for Vol1-6. I was told that they are of inferior quality to the CDG's and were GENERALLY SPEAKING legal. There is, however, a limit on how many were licensed to be produced and I was informed by CB that they cannot say whether the discs I was planning to purchase were produced among a batch manufactured within those legal limits, or not. It seems that CB did not actually manufactured the SCDG's themselves. I informed the fellow that based upon his input, I was going to order Vol1-6 on SCDG the very same day! Which I did! There was no question asked of me as to who was offering the discs and no reason was provided for me to avoid making the purchase!

So, IMHO, I went "above and beyond"! I spent a lot of time making inquiries that I shouldn't HAVE to make and with hindsight realize that I probably shouldn't have gotten involved with. And I did so because the situations didn't "feel right" to me. So I needed to gain a level of comfort based upon MY PRINCIPLES ---- not anyone else's standards or sensibilities!

And my initial uneasiness was based solely upon the ramblings I've encountered from so-called "experts" on this forum about what constitutes "legal". And after I was informed by CB that the two matters that I called about and was sure were illegal proved to be legit, I am done asking questions about merchandise being offered by legit vendors!

Chartbuster said if I bought it in GOOD FAITH, even if counterfeit, fear not! If that doesn't say it all, I don't know what does. By establishing a higher standard for myself than GOOD FAITH, I lost not only valuable time but almost ruined my relationship with an excellent vendor! If I challenged the vendor about his products, as was originally my mind-set, instead of trusting him, I would have embarrassed myself, insulted someone needlessly and I would have lost access to an excellent vendor!

And no one, C Staley, is suggesting that a Hard Drive with pirated contents is a legal purchase anymore than counterfeited discs are legal regardless of where they are purchased.

So, you run your business your way and others will run their business their way!

And mis-minted coins are not meant to be spent but they are collector's items valued far above the face value. Does anyone throw those away too?

Since I don't know whether the rights were "lost" or "revoked" (highly questionable since a license is a contractual agreement with specific range and scope) or whether the disc was produced, packaged, distributed and sold "in anticipation" of licensing beyond a compulsory license --which is still a violation-- I do know that the horse is out of the barn so to speak. And if it was not such a big deal, why was there such a scramble at the time to yank them from the shelves and return them?

Obviously, not all licensing was secured or they wouldn't have produced the "non-graphic version" of the RBTL (read between the lines) disc.... was a lyric reprint or synchronization license never granted? Only Sound Choice knows for sure and to my knowledge, they've not explained it in any understandable fashion, but that's their business, not mine.

Are "vocal masks" legal? Not to my knowledge but there are several manufacturers in the U.S. and abroad that have produced tracks that way including sampling here and there. And this includes the current "major producers" as they've been referred to.

BTW: I NEVER said; "a pirated hard drive", you did. I simply said a hard drive... with a receipt from a legitimate store. Or let's say from an Ebay seller just as the example you've posted. Gee, should I question the legality of the contents of such a drive if I purchased it "in good faith?" By your standards, it's simply "a great deal" and therefore you are completely innocent and safe from any prosecution of any kind.



Well THERE YOU GO! All the "license" you need apparently! Doesn't matter if it's counterfeit, as long as you bought it "in good faith" you're completely off the hook! You can rush right out and purchase that hard drive with all the counterfeit tracks on it in "good faith" and you've made the "deal" of the century! Chartbuster told you so!


Why don't you place a call to Daaichi Kosho in Japan or Eric Brown at Song Factory and verify this purchase as well? They are still in business and I'm sure you can get the number. But it's much easier to buy the stuff, and claim ignorance because it was "a great deal" and it's not your responsibility anyway.

This is what happened with sc 8125, it is also what happened to a number of mfg, and is still happening to CB. It used to that karaoke mfg, got the compulsary licensing, at least the legitmate ones, and they would get a verbal ok for the synch licensing, they would go ahead and make the cdg, even sell it, because they were told by the publisher it was ok, then the artist or original copyright holder said NO, because the compulsary licensing is not controlled by the artist, in other words any garage band can do a version of any song as long as the pay the comulsary licensing, however the synch licensing, which is required to put the grapics on screen has to be negotiated seperatly and can be denied ie: sc8125, the eagles refused, much like when stellar and aabko went to court because stellar was going to put out a stones cdg and aabko refused, this is also where the beginning of a cdg started as an audio-visual work the federal judge deemed it so in the decision, and stellar could not produce the cdg, to make a long story, short, in the beginning, due to the way business was done it was easy to think you could put something out and find out 6 months later, you were in trouble, much the way CB still seems to do business, put it out there untill your told to remove it, which is probably why they have so many revised discs

The negotiated licenses include:

(1) a Mechanical license (to press the discs and it usually includes a fixed number)
(2) a Lyric Reprint license (to reproduce the lyrics)
(3) a Synchronization license (to synchronize the "sweeps" in time with the music)

The lawsuit between Stellar and AAbko (sp) was primarily regarding lyric reprint and synchronization. Stellar's position was that since the lyrics were not "sung" on the disc there should be no difference if the lyrics are publicly displayed since if there was a live band performing the song, the lyrics would be sung (hence "publicly distributed") but not displayed and that this presented a situation that was not in equity.

If in fact, there are manufacturers today that are producing, distributing and selling tracks before all licensing is secured, as you mention above, AND they are members of KIAA.... it doesn't speak well of the integrity of such an organization does it? Especially since that same organization has NO safeguards in place that prevent a manufacturer from breaking the law but wants all the KJ members to sign away their rights. (I'm sure Insane(Wayne)KJ will be jumping in shortly.)

Tovmod,
In your conversation with CB did you tell them you were a kj or that this was for your personal use, in reading their terms of use they still stipulate under no circumstances can you even format shift their music for commercial use, obviously for you home, while its the same as copiing a movie and keeping it, its illegal, no one is coming to your home to do anything, pls reread terms of use, it contidictes everything you said, at least for commercial use.

Cstaley,
Last I was aware 1 & 2 were compulsary and and have a set amount with a minimum of 500 and 3 is negotiated

From what I understand the mechanical liscence is set at 0.07 a song per copy. This suggests that you should never really be paying less then 0.07 for songs in bulk. The mechanical liscence is the fee that all musicians pay whenever they make a "cover" version of the song to the original artist. This fee is standardized and the origional artist does not have the ability to "block" the usage by anyone. Ie ANYONE can make a cover version of a song so long as they pay this fee.

The lyric reprint and sync rights are not standardized in the US, they are negotiated in a case by case basis, usually for a set number of song copies. On average these rights appear to be close to a dollar per song (far more than the mechanical rights). This license does require the approval of the artists (or owner of the rights if the artist is dead or has sold the rights). In this case it is no different (as viewed by the law) as using the song in a commercial. An artist has the right to prevent a company from using their song in a commercial for example even if the company making the commercial is willing to pay (same with a movie, tv show etc). The company must pay enough to make the artist happy with the deal and sometimes that can be a lot.


Apparently in some cases the lyric and sync rights can be sold separately and sometimes the publisher may be the entity that the karaoke manu has to buy the lyric rights from while the artists still owns the sync rights.


So a company like SGB (OR DK) may have made a set number of CDs in the past, and presumably they paid all of the fees to the artists. A new company may buy all of the rights from DK but all they are buying is the existing recordings, IF they wanted to make and sell remakes of the DK disks they would have to pay the 7 cents per song copy PLUS re-negotiate lyric and sync rights with all of the artists involved. Needless to say finding and getting approval of all the artists involved is going to be VERY difficult, and some of the artists are going to demand so much money that it will be impractical as the cost per song will be higher than most KJs will pay. This assumes hat the initial contract negotiations were all "used up" and the number of songs made matched the previous contracts. Presumably some of the contracts might have been open-ended and might have allowed additional copies to be pressed. Regardless fees would be paid to the artists, sometimes near a dollar per song copy.

The laws in the UK are apparently different and the cost per song for all 3 rights is set at about $0.50 per song. The artist is paid a set rate and does not have veto power. For reciprocal purposes this includes US artists. The UK made product is then legal in the USA.

In addition to use the songs in a commercial setting the performing rights must be paid for in the US this involves paying ASCAP/BMI plus a few smaller independent brokers representing some other artists.

So to use a Karaoke disk legally the artitst must be paid by 4 different paths. Usually the karaoke manu is assumed (often incorrectly) to have paid the first 3 ways.

The "GOOD FAITH" argument probably has limitied validity here. If you purchase a article in good faith, that is in fact illegal (and as this thread shows that can be very hard to determine for a specific CD) you are theretically "safe" until you are conclusively informed that the product is in fact illegal. At which point your "GOOD FAITH" will protect you from prosecution, BUT you will have to forfit the item (songs/CDs) for destruction.

Now the "GOOD FAITH" argument presumes some reasonable level of understanding of market prices involved. It does not protect you if you purchase $5 sportscars or $500 loaded CDs. It does protect you if you purchase a copy of a disk for the average market price of $12-20 even if you are later informed by SC (or CB) or whoever that the disk is illegal. The good faith argument then allows you to claim to be a victim not a perpetrator of the music theft involved. You will then be returned to good legal standing so long as you forfit the music in question. You are then entitled to demaind a refund from whoever you purchased the music from who is presumed to be the perpetrator of the music theft. This can then travel up the chan to the true origionator of the music theft.

Realisticaly dont expect to get paid any refunds even if you demand them, if you have had the product for more than a few days.

For the purposes of argument here the SC "Eagles" disk apparently was not legally made and agreement was not reached between SC and the Eagles on that CD. Therefore from the point of view of the Eagles all of the copies are Illegal.

Dr Fred @ Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:32 am wrote:

MATERIAL EDITED OUT OF POST:

The "GOOD FAITH" argument probably has limitied validity here. If you purchase a article in good faith, that is in fact illegal (and as this thread shows that can be very hard to determine for a specific CD) you are theretically "safe" until you are conclusively informed that the product is in fact illegal. At which point your "GOOD FAITH" will protect you from prosecution, BUT you will have to forfit the item (songs/CDs) for destruction.

Now the "GOOD FAITH" argument presumes some reasonable level of understanding of market prices involved. It does not protect you if you purchase $5 sportscars or $500 loaded CDs. It does protect you if you purchase a copy of a disk for the average market price of $12-20 even if you are later informed by SC (or CB) or whoever that the disk is illegal. The good faith argument then allows you to claim to be a victim not a perpetrator of the music theft involved. You will then be returned to good legal standing so long as you forfit the music in question. You are then entitled to demaind a refund from whoever you purchased the music from who is presumed to be the perpetrator of the music theft. This can then travel up the chan to the true origionator of the music theft.

Realisticaly dont expect to get paid any refunds even if you demand them, if you have had the product for more than a few days.

For the purposes of argument here the SC "Eagles" disk apparently was not legally made and agreement was not reached between SC and the Eagles on that CD. Therefore from the point of view of the Eagles all of the copies are Illegal.

C Staly, Fred & Etal:

Are you guys kidding me?

1. Nobody from our side of the business needs to know and shouldn't have to know what you have posted about licenses and fees and commercial use. And, frankly, I don't know that what has been posted is correct? And, since I don't need to know I will NEVER research the question down to that level of minutiae. And it's likely that if I actually did get that involved, I would probably conclude that it would be best to never buy another karaoke track from anyone!

2. I am really at a loss as to who would prove to me conclusively that something I purchased was illegal. And, in fact, I have seen arguments on Karaoke forums stating that SC had not broken any laws or contracts when they produced the Eagles disc and that those who purchased them owned a legal product! I am not saying this info is correct...I am just saying that there maybe some doubt in the minds of many about the status of those discs and that the may not be illegal as suggested in Fred's post

3. And I wonder if knowing the laws as you guys do might encourage piracy! Having such a level of knowledge reveals to me that there is the risk of breaking the law with every karaoke purchase you make even if it is directly from the manufacturer. How would I know, for example, that the manufacturer didn't produce an "extra" disc during the pressing and that I didn't end up buying that ILLEGAL extra disc? One extra disc with every pressing could provide substantial gains

4. And the current discussion surrounding DK has provided excellent examples of how the "legal" chatter on this forum is becoming overbearing. Someone on another thread asserted that the DK SCDG's couldn't be legal because the SCDG format is inherently illegal. And that argument is based upon of the number of tracks CDG's contain. Meanwhile, CB had produced SCDG's!!! And I would rather believe they are legal based upon CB's example than to believe those who are posting that SCDG's are illegal! And if SCDG's are illegal then no one should buy anything from a company that is involved with them!

5. And based solely upon the legal mumbo jumbo experienced on this forum, I found that I had raised questions in my mind that did not serve me well. In short, I learned that I was wrong twice during the same phone call to Chartbuster regarding what I believed to be counterfeit/illegal products; they were in fact LEGAL! I am done being a jailhouse lawyer. And without the "legal" postings on this forum, I would never have become one!

6. So thanks for the legal opinions, but this is one of the first times in my life that I WILL SAY, don't try to confuse me with the facts! I'll continue to deal with legit manufacturers and outlets IN GOOD FAITH and let the chips fall where they may. And until I am hauled off to jail for using some material --- purchased in GOOD FAITH ---- I will continue to use the material as Chartbuster implied/suggested that I should! They told me "not to worry" and I won't!

GOOD FAITH:

If the deal seems to good to be true... it probably is!


As for Chartbuster... some of the monthly discs are sent as burned. It wouldn't surprise me if they don't have an agreement for some distributors to burn the discs as needed to keep production / shipping costs down.


J

What I don't get is WHY is EVERYONE concerned about how a MANUFACTURER conducts THEIR business. I am a CONSUMER, not a lawyer, not an investigator. WHY would I question ANY purchase that I make from a LIGITIMATE RETAILER. When I go to the grocery, do I question HOW they can be selling chicken for .88c per pound, when the store down the street is selling chicken for 1.29 a pound. ABSOLUTELY NOT, so what makes this any different. When you see the LARGE bins of dvd's in the middle aisle selling for 1.99, do you ask one of the associates if they are PIRATED dvd's? OF COURSE NOT. So, what makes ALL OF YOU get your panties in a bunch WHENEVER someone posts about a bargain that they found. Is it because when YOU bought the same cdg, it cost you $39.00 ea.? I'm SORRY, but THAT'S LIFE, deal with it. I can remember buying a dvd player for over $500.00, when they came out, NOW you can get one FREE for buying a tv for $299.00. How many vcr tapes do you have sitting around collecting dust, or cassette tapes for that matter? I don't know what answer you guys are looking for, but I HOPE you find it so the REST of us can ENJOY having a karaoke business instead of having to worry about EACH and EVERY purchase we make. In conclusion, I'll AGAIN ask " has ANYONE thrown away ANY of their discs that were DISCONTINUED (for ANY reason), and if NOT, WHY NOT???

Rosario

So the bottom line for all here is that --Not one of "YOU" including myself really know what is "TRULY" legal out there in terms of Karaoke Material and the LAWS that surround the PURCHASE - FORMAT SHIFTING- DUPLICATION - PROFESIONAL USE or RECORDING OF ....... JUST ADMIT IT

Not at all.




This depends entirely on your level of professionalism. Either you choose to learn about the business you're in (including history, licensing etc.) or you simply "like to sing a lot." It's like a NASCAR driver that doesn't want to know anything about his own profession, he just "likes to drive cars really fast."

Your opinion includes; "Nobody needs to know", "shouldn't have to know", "don't need to know", "I will NEVER research" etc. You are fully within your right to know/learn as little as you care to.



Obviously, you have some doubt on the status of those discs. Keep in mind that no one here has said that if you PURCHASED this product (from a store if you like) that you did anything illegal. What HAS been said is that it appears that the discs were produced and SOLD prior to securing all rights and (as far as the Eagles are concerned and most likely a court) they were produced illegally. By all intents and purposes, you shouldn't have the disc since it shouldn't have been produced for you to purchase in the first place.



You're right. How would you know? You wouldn't and this is where the "good faith" portion of the equation comes in. You purchase a disc "in good faith" that it was produced with all necessary licensing (even if you don't know what they are) in place.



Also, keep in mind that real issue here is NOT whether the "SCDG format is illegal." What is in question is that the DK tracks --based on the licensing information-- can't possibly be legally re-released in ANY format currrently, by anyone. (and even DK can't just start re-pressing discs and dumping them on the market.) If CB worked out a deal with the publishers/owners of the work to license the distribution of the tracks in that format (or ANY format for that matter), then more power to them!


Good for you! As I mentioned above, it's entirely up to you how much involvement you care to have. Nobody is pushing you to learn/research anymore than you're willing to do or have an interest in. However, in the same breath, you should be just as tolerant of those that DO choose to do more checking, research etc. In any case, the questions that were raised in your mind ultimately caused you to do your own research and clear up the matter in your own mind didn't it?



You're welcome. We'll try not to confuse you with factual information in the future. I suppose that ignorance is bliss but far be it for me to rain on your parade. Feel free to use the "in good faith" phrase as your Superman security blanket all you like. Also keep in mind that the information you received regarding Chartbuster pertains ONLY to Chartbuster, they cannot speak for DK, SC, PHM, JVC or any other manufacturer who may have conflicting information regarding their material/tracks.