Karaoke Forums

I agree with Jam. And also if anyone notices, the simpleist, most STRAIGHT FORWARD questions are NEVER addressed, or answered.

Rosario

Because it DOES matter. Especially to the manufacturers these days doesn't it? Let's restate your question: "Why are MANUFACTURERS concerned about how a KJ conducts THEIR business?" They obviously are or there wouldn't be so many court filings would there? KJ's are just like you, simply "consumers" aren't they? So what's the beef?



Nothing if you are eating the chicken in your own home, but if you are IN TURN reselling the chicken for .99 a pound, the store that sells for 1.29 will have a problem if the source your purchased from stole them and you're reselling stolen property. Or more accurately, not "govt. inspected & approved" product that adds costs to their product.



Not quite a fair comparison. You speak of DK tracks in the SCDG format NOT original cd's. A more fair comparison would be to say; "When you see the LARGE bins of BURNED DVD's in the middle isle selling for 1.99...." A true "bargain" would be to see a bin of original DK's marked 1.99 not burned or format shifted COPIES of DK tracks.



Gee, I remember spending $39 for a CDG disc and then suddenly you'd get discs included as "freebies" every time you bought a player.... So what's your point? Did you get a free original DK or SC8125 with every purchase of a player?

Sorry, but you DO have to worry about your purchases.... Just ask SC who's business is now centered more around litigation of these same purchases than selling the product. It's people that have NOT been worrying about their purchases (like burns, hard drives, SCDG's, MP3+G's etc.) that have pushed this business into the non-money-making business that it is today.

How much would a set of DK's run today if it was impossible to ever make a copy or format shift them at all? They'd be golden, but they're not are they? So I spent $4,000 on something that you're happy to purchase a COPY from a questionable source in a different format for $160? Why bother when you can simply download them anyway for free and save the $160?.... Why not download all of Music Maestro, DK, All Hits, Dangerous, Radio Stars, Country Hits Monthly etc. because who's gonna sue you? You're apparently happy to take advantage of other KJ's by purchasing copies in ANY format as long as you can shift the blame somewhere else by claiming ignorance or "good faith." Good for you.




Because I didn't discontinue the disc, nor do I have any contract with the manufacture that limits the number of times I can play it. Did you throw away your old perfectly-running car just because General Motors no longer sells (discontinued) that model? And if NOT, WHY NOT????

Not really a fair characterization I believe. There are valid points on both sides of each of these arguments and until it's completely settled by a court on all these points, it's open for debate... (or dead horse whipping if you prefer).

c.staley, are you a politician by any chance? The reason I ask is that you ALWAYS seem to take someone's ORIGINAL question, and then say "what you're really asking is THIS", then you RE-FORMAT the question and then answer YOUR question. Example: I asked "Why is everyone concerned about how Manufacturers run their business?" You turned the question completely around, then answered your own question. ALL I'm trying to say, is that if I see something for sale, and have NEVER seen or heard of that product being ILLEGAL, I feel that I am a consumer, and I am LEGALLY purchasing THAT PRODUCT. I haven't seen ANYWHERE (other than this forum) that SCDG's are inherently illegal because they contain more than 30 songs on one disc. If they ARE in FACT illegal, could ANYONE point it out to me, THEN I will no longer comment on the subject of SCDG's. And as far as the DK SCDG's, same thing, show me where the MANUFACTURER has filed some type of ORDER for the RETALIER to stop selling THEIR material. Don't you think if they saw the SCDG's on sale, that they would file some type of LAW SUIT against them. If DK isn't worried, why should I be worried about buying them?

Rosario

Not even close to a fair comparison.
General Motors did not presume to make cars without having the proper license to do so, hence creating an "illegal" product.
Seems you want to have your cake and eat it too.
As for all the legal mumbo jumbo, I find it complete nonsense that's going nowhere.
When you go buy a cd or movie, do you do all the research as far as licensing and the number of pressings allowed goes? Of course not! We pay for it and we forget about it. Sorry, but Karaoke should be the same way. As long as I'm not purchasing obvious fakes, I'm going to buy my discs, play them, and not worry about it.
The rest doesn't matter and is not for me, as a consumer, to worry about.

In the General Motors analogy, as Diafel pointed out, they did NOT produce an unlicensed product, hence it is STILL legal to use. But since YOU'RE getting into the legal aspects of the manufacturing of karaoke discs, TECHNICALLY if you are using tracks that were produced without being licensed, you are using ILLEGAL property. So, therefore, since you're so concerned about POSSIBLE illegalities of SCDG's, why wouldn't YOU destroy ILLEGAL property that is in YOUR library. Any songs that were pulled AFTER production, etc. Where do YOU draw the line??

Rosario

The discussion persists because C Staley has decided that he is the final arbiter of everything legal and professional regarding karaoke.

Well, Mr Staley, I use the time I have to improve my businesses. I am 100% legal in how I conduct my businesses because I say I am and I am more persnickety than you. And if you are not as persnickety as I am you are not the professional that I am. So you better find some persnickety or at least your funky cold medina. God bless your judicious heart!

Duplication is actually the only one of the above set in stone- some years ago. One can duplicate ( to the same media) Cd's, DVD's, Software, CD+Gs, etc.. for personal back-up, and single site use. No ifs, ands, or buts- Period. You own it, and can do as you please with it- for ONLY YOUR OWN use.

However, even GIVING away one backup to another party constitutes illegal distribution for the intention of multi-site use. Of course, abuse like this is why mfrs. attempt to copy guard their products.

It was actually the software companies that ( through several court battles) standardized this law in the early 90's

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

You know...

There's only going to be one way of ending this thread. That's going to be to call the manu, which I'm going to try and do right now. I will do it on speakerphone, and record the video for everyone to see.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _71353374/

That article states that foreverhits got sold to a new company, Entertainment Arts.

According to this, Eric Brown is still in charge.
http://investing.businessweek.com/resea ... ol=ETAR:US

Finally, I found this PDF with a phone number on it.
http://www.holografx.com/pdfs/stock.pdf

OK let's see what happens when I call.

Actually Diafel, I respectfully disagree. Your position is that you are a "consumer" which is different than using the product "commercially." I'm sure that SC didn't "presume" to create the Eagles disc without having the proper licensing either. But they did right? So was this disc created illegally or was it created "legally" and then "became illegal" once licensing could not be secured? It's a toss-up isn't it?

And in this case, you can't eat your cake and have it too. Let's put aside all the SCDG stuff for a minute and let me ask you this: Do YOU, Diafel, believe that DKKARAOKE tracks 1-99, Millenium or Applause series available on SCDG have been re-licensed and re-released legally? (Remember, the question is "believe" not "do you know for sure.")

I know that your first response would probably be: "I don't have to care, I'm just the consumer. I just buy them in good faith, it's not my business and I'm not the cops." However none of these would be a valid answer. Especially if you purchased a SCDG disc from a "store" that contained a bunch of brand-spanking new SC tracks on it.

As far as the "legality" of the SCDG format, that's never been in question here. I don't use it myself, but I am sure that it can possibly be perfectly "legal." As can be ANY format.

The statement that I'm asserting here has always been that "DKKaraoke tracks" (from the original dk 1-99) being sold recently on ANY electronic format are most likely not legal. Based on the fact that licenses for manufacturers do NOT cover any format -currently invented or not- as there was NO SCDG format invented when DK pulled out of the U.S. Nor are these licenses perpetual in duration.

[youtube]jK3sjzQOhHI[/youtube]

And with that being said...

I did a little more digging. Found out Eric Brown is now at another company called Holografx. There is contact info listed at the link below
http://www.pinksheets.com/pink/quote/qu ... ompanyInfo

I have a parent teacher meeting to attend to, but if nobody has called (with a video, this is important) then I will call when I get back.

I know I started this all with my opinions, but let's all agree to stop arguing until we get the facts straight ok?

Show me where DK has announced that their entire library is "back by popular demand and in convenient new formats at greatly reduced prices for all of it's consumers." That isn't present either.


As far as violators are concerned, DK doesn't care anymore, they're not in this market... Neither does Pioneer, JVC, RCA or any company that is so large and out of this business that filing a suit against your Ebay vendor would cost more in legal fees than they could ever expect to get out of it.

C. Staley,

You can just as easily win this argument by calling Eric. Stop the conjecture and call. I have to be at the parent teacher meeting in 30 minutes otherwise I'd be doing it right now.

Just so you know, I side with your opinion but you can't win this argument on pure speculation.

Number is 480-575-0254

Do it on speakerphone and record the video. Ask for Eric Brown.

Sorry Toqer, Don't have a webcam nor am I familiar with how to upload anything to YouTube.

I DID however, get his voicemail and left a message for him to respond either via email or my cellphone.

It'll be interesting to see what happens...

1st of all --Even if you buy something in good faith from a web site that is ILLEGALLY selling anything ....you have stolen property ..SIMPLE

Doesn't make you a THIEF per se' but the moral question is NOW THAT YOU KNOW do you still use the product ?? or destroy it and fight to get you money back ?

Just because you don't know the LAW does not make you RIGHT or not at fault

Now if a Karaoke mfg produces records and starts to distribute a track without having ALL THE REQUIRED LICENSES TO DO SO is wrong stupid and makes them liable.

Just give me a hard drive with a gazillion songs on it and leave me alone

The world may explode, since I am going to agree with Jam 100%.

It's just like buying a diamond bracelet in the parking lot at Walmart. If the original owner tracks you down and you claim you did that, receipt or no, you haven't any ground to stand on. You have to recover from the person who sold to you.

That being said, you are exceedingly unlikely to get dinged. Unless ASCAP/BMI starts going around and auditing DJs, you won't have a problem. SoundChoice is only pursuing their music, and DK isn't going to be doing it.

You might even have some little bit of ground to stand on if ASCAP/BMI started auditing systems, if you had a receipt. But if they saw an SCDG with a $29.00 cost for 1000 songs, forget that too. 2.9 cents per song won't even pay the statutory per-copy royalty. Unless you are paying 13 cents a song (minus the small number in the public domain), you can't really be legal.*

Could I have bought the SCDG versions of a Chartbuster Essentials pack? I suppose I could. But deep down I would know I am not really legal. $100.00 is too little money for me to lose sleep.

* I do know that you can buy an overstock or closeout CDG for less than that when the fees have been prepaid. Spare me the conjecture that SCDG makers are pre-paying 130.00 per 1000-song disk when they make it.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

The way I see it if some company chooses to claim that you have stolen property then it is their duty to prove it. For a hard drive with 100k songs that is a pretty easy task.

For other cases it is a bit more difficult. If to prove a disk is an illegal copy one has to look at various tiny details that a normal consumer would not be expected to notice you are most likely covered by the good faith clause.

The disks being sold for $2 or less "new" are probably frauds, while the ones being sold for $20 each are probably legit. BUT NOT ALWAYS. There are many illegal copies that someone might try to sell at full or near full price, and some used or overstock disks that legitimately sell for only a couple dollars.

No I dont expect everyone to know "WHY" the CDS sell for 15-20 for new songs just like I dont expect everyone to know "WHY" a new car sells for 30k. But If someone tries to sell you a NEW cd for $2-3, or 1/5 the normal price a responsible buyer should ask WHY? just the same as if someone offers to sell you a NEW car for 4-5k or 1/5 the normal price.

I attempted to the best of my knowledge to explain WHY the disks sell for 15-20 dollars. It is not necessary knowledge, it is only necessary to become familiar with the normal prices to spot the deal that is "TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE". As a KJ it should be your responsiblity to learn the normal prices of the product you use in the market.

The good faith clause does not cover a disk with the label written on in pen. Everyone can spot some fakes, but sometimes it takes a true expert.

I would not go to the store and buy fish for $0.25 a pound because it probably stinks. I dont have to know the expenses of the fisherman to know that there is something that does not smell right about it.

Halleluiah Brother! At last someone speaking sense!!

Because the illegal retailers do not have little signs that say "I am an illegal retalier" and the ones that are LEGITIMATE do not have little signs that say that are legal.

No it is not easy to spot the legal and illegal in every case, and sometimes people will make mistakes. AND YES EVEN EXPERTS. What we are doing here is trying to explain some of the situations that appear illegal to us as KJs. Sure some of us are going to be wrong sometimes, either in false accuations or letting an illegal product get a passing grade. But at the extreme we probably all agree that SOME karaoke products out there are clearly illegal, while others appear to be following the laws.

What we are doing is just offering a bit of help in spotting the bad ones.