Karaoke Forums

KJ's, you've got to stop rating manufacturers! Why?

I went to a show a few months back where a catalog wasn't available. As my turn approached I asked the KJ what choices of manufacturers were available for my selection? This was a case where experience had taught me that a few versions of this song were unacceptable to me. The KJ happily informed me that he set me up with the best - SC.

Well, I knew in this case SC was far from the best, it was unacceptable.

And the casual singer in similar circumstances might find their thinking misdirected in the future based upon the KJ's remark about SC!

But most important, consider the following:
1. Manufacturers are falling like flies
2. One man's junk is another man's collectible
3. Not every karaoke singer cares about the "quality" in the same perspective as you do
4. Just because a singer asks you what's the difference between the same songs offered by different manus in your catalog, doesn't mean he isn't simply asking, "why so many choices"?
5. Most people simply want to have a good time and wouldn't even care about manufacturers until someone else brings up such a discussion.
6. As an important example, while I have problems with several Music Maestro tracks, their DooWop and Elvis renditions are incomparable.
7. As just acknowledged in another thread, sometimes the "best" manufacturer didn't produce the song you want. So, then what?
8. It was also implied in another thread that if there is no alternative, SGB is okay! It would seem to me something is either acceptable or unacceptable. And rarely do I find a track that is unacceptable to sing to!
9. I will decide what manufacturers are included in my library based upon my evaluation and not that of a person who is looking to become an "entertainer" at my show. My show is for the masses who just don't get that into the world of karaoke
10. I know one successful show that is over 90% Music Maestro. The use of the term "success" is based upon attendance, longevity and stability. So, if MM works for one, it could work for all (if they were still in business) if you really wanted to make it work!

Tovmod, I was with you all the way UNTIL #9. If I'm interpreting it correctly, YOU are using the EXACT bias that you are accusing the other kjs of doing. They're saying SOUNDCHOICE is the answer to all song versions. YOU'RE saying MY (referring to you) choice is the answer to the BEST version. Just as you said, when the kj chose SOUNDCHOICE as the best version, although YOU knew it wasn't (for YOU). I think the BEST version is the one that the SINGER likes. Not that I'm saying that we should have EVERY version of EVERY song, but if we DO indeed have the version that the SINGER likes, I will most DEFINATELY give it to them. If they ask ME to choose, then I will pick the version that I think is the best, no matter WHAT version it is. To me it all depends on the song, as to which version is the best. As far as my library, I buy what I can afford, and HOPE that I can please the MAJORITY of the SINGERS.

Rosario

I have to agree with Tovmod on #9 because I don't believe it's the same bias. KJ's build libraries that should be well-rounded in selection and (hopefully) consists of the tracks that are the closest "sounding" to the original. It shouldn't be any race to acquire every brand of every song so that the singer makes that decision for you.

The singer may have the crappiest version alive that they sing at home in front of the dog and think it's the greatest, but as the KJ "runnin' the show and buyin' the music" I believe there's a lot of room for the KJ to be the descriminating ear.

There are some aspects of brands that even a KJ doesn't like -like the flute on DK tracks or that some tracks take 15-20 seconds to start after pushing "play" on Music Maestro.... Annnoyances for sure, but in the long run it's of no consequence.

I might have the "lesser favored" rendition available, but it's not in the book for a reason and if a singer asks, then "nope, sorry I don't have that brand.... but i have one just as good and I think you'll enjoy it too."

Ultimately, the acquisition and pruning of tracks is what makes each KJ's library a unique one.

Sorry Rosario,

I'll stick with #9. However, you are misreading it. My decision on what to purchase might be a business decision as well as a quality evaluation. For example, CB told me the SCDG's don't have the sound quality as a CDG. I bought it nonetheless!

And BTW, I love DK even with and sometimes because of the pan flute!

I don't think this subject needs rigid rules. A preference is not a black and white do or die thing. Many hosts who prefer SC may have other manufacturers in their libraries and still manage to live. It is a fluid thing, based on availability, deals, singer requests, budget, etc. I am constantly revising what might be the "best" version and in the end it is to please the singer.

We have many brands in our library, including some obscure ones but I don't translate that into more ways to bash SC. Because the truth of the matter is, except for some rare exceptions, when I see the SC logo come up on a song that a singer has chosen, I am pretty sure that it is going to be a good version that is going to amplify into sounding like a live band with good clarity of sound. When an SGB comes up, I'm going to be watching it like a hawk and it may be fine or it may have sweeps that are two lines off or absurd words and need replacing.

I don't hate the SGBs as much as some on here and in fact feel that they picked a lot of "most requested" songs for their collection. But I have had to replace enough of them to say that it wouldn't be the first brand I would go to . I base this "bias" on my personal experiences. Further experiences may modify what I choose even more. It's flexible. I don't have a need to always be "right" that borders on the pathological.

Funny you should mention that about MM. There are a few songs that I like to sing (occasionally) off of MM, and I have burned those songs onto my own personal compilation discs that I bring with me to other shows. I too was frustrated by that 30 seconds (or so) of dead silence between the title appearing on the screen, and then the music finally started, but I figured out how to fix that (in my personal compilations). I managed to reburn the track by sectors.... meaning, I used the bit count of the track, and then burned the opening of the title, skipped 400 to 800 bits (trial and error... sometimes I skipped more), and then burned a 2nd song (from the same track) where I left off. Then I merged the two tracks into 1, and Viola!, I had a MM track of a song that went right into it.

Tovmod, I was with you up until number 9 as well, and this is why I'll disagree.

9. I will decide what manufacturers are included in my library based upon my evaluation and not that of a person who is looking to become an "entertainer" at my show. My show is for the masses who just don't get that into the world of karaoke

I won't fault you for wanting to decide what you will add into your library, but not all people that want specific versions of a song (that you might not be willing to get because you believe it is of an inferior quality) are looking to (as you put it) become an "entertainer." Some of them are just comfortable with that particular version of the song, and they will only sing that version. They know that they don't sing well, and they don't care. They just want to get up and sing their song the way they're used to singing it.

Here is an example of what I mean. "Come Sail Away" by Styx.... I know that it is on MM and SC (I don't know if it's on another disc, and I don't really need to know). These 2 versions are like night and day. 1st off, the MM version was recorded in a key that is higher than the original. 2nd, the MM version doesn't not have the 2nd stanza of the song. 3rd (although some KJs might be happy about this), it doesn't have the 58 measure Instrumental break. Years ago, I knew someone who liked to sing this song at Karaoke shows. She always sang it from the MM version. I kept telling her that the SC version was much better, and she still refused to try it. She said that she was afraid to try it because she might not recognize the parts that were different. One day, I finally coaxed her into trying the song with me (on my turn). She got up and performed the song with me. She was very impressed with the differences in the quality, but she said that she still felt more comfortable singing from the other version.

So, after all was said and done, this person still prefered singing that particular song on an obviously lesser quality disc. Now, I'm not trying to say that MM is terrible, and to stay away from them at all costs. As a matter of fact, MM has produced many songs of equal quality to the other manufacturers that we like to claim are the best. Specifically, their Elvis discs were of better quality, and their Doo Wop is top notch too. I find their Oldies are very good too, and I would even choose some of their songs over SC (I'm just using SC as my example, since most of us know their quality).

Getting back to this person I was speaking of, she was one of those "1-Hit-Wonders" that we get at our shows all of the time. She ONLY sang the same 3 or 4 songs and nothing else. She was also LOYAL to the KJ... she came to all of his shows wherever he hosted them. She never considered herself to be an "entertainer." She was just there to have fun. Now, if you had her at your show, wouldn't you break down and get that particular disc for her to sing from? She may be only 1 person, but she is also part of those "masses who just don't get that into the world of karaoke" (as you put it).

As far as me telling others what I feel is the BEST, I always tell them that that is just my opinion. In my song books, I use Manu codes to list them. I also have all of my duplicate songs listed. Where I have duplicates, I have put ** in front of those that I felt were better versions. When people come up to me and ask about that, I tell them that I believe this is a better version of the song, but you're free to try whichever one you want to.

I don't get it. If someone wants to know what to buy to start a collection, how else are they supposed to know? Trial and error? Let them decide to go with MusicMaestro, which has a very high percentage of unacceptable tracks?

It is a fact that SoundChoice is much better than MusicMaestro across a broad spectrum. You pay for that. And our ratings help people know that they are getting what they pay for.

Unless you are evaluating your catalog track by track, which is impossible to do for a large catalog, then you need some way to generalize.

This sounds like the karaoke catalog version of affirmative action, and I am not really into that. MusicMaestro is pee-poor on a very large percentage of their tracks. And hiding that does no good at all. If you have the time to listen to multiple ones and decide on an individual basis, bully for you. But most don't have that time.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Tovmod, and c.staley, I'm not saying that either of you are wrong, it's just YOUR preference in the way you run YOUR show. What I'm saying, is that (I) personally buy what is in my budget, THEN if I don't happen to have the version that a particular singer likes, AND they are a repeat customer, I will do my best to get the version that THEY like. If it's SGB, Soundchoice, MM, or WHATEVER, if I can get it "within reason", I will do so. If I can't, then I will tell them if THEY can get it, that I can play it on my cdg player. No argument, just different way of thinking about it.

Srnitynow

I guess I'll have to expand on my point 9., because EVERYONE has misinterpreted it


At the opening of the OP I said: KJ's, you've got to stop rating manufacturers! Why?

The "why" is because KJ's who are consciously scorning some manufacturers while lauding others are maintaining a bias! And I am not sure that such a bias is of benefit to anyone? There are many choices out there and I say expose the customers to the choices that make sense for your business! That's why there's Vanilla Ice Cream, Chocolate Ice Cream and so on.

And too many KJ's just ignore posts like the following one which reflect the thinking of a good many singers who have posted on this forum:


And here is a post that, IMHO, reflects a KJ bias and doesn't consider that most singers, like the preceding poster, are likely willing to accept whatever a KJ has to offer:


This post to me, reflects a strong bias --- if the SC logo comes up, I can almost hear the KJ breathing a sigh of relief. And while this poster, as do many others, tries to replace SGB, I embrace the brand and wouldn't want to run my show without it.

Except for the occasional clunker in the product line, I often select SGB for my singers over other choices and have never received a single complaint! And if I did get a complaint I would surely see if I did in fact have a different version of the song. But if not, I wouldn't become obsessed with purchasing a replacement for the SGB track, I'd apologize to the singer and suggest that they pick another song next time!

So, while leopard lizard is rightfully concerned about her singer's SINGING experience and how good the "backing track" will sound, hence how good her singer will sound, I am just as rightfully less concerned!

And this goes to the heart of what I was saying in Point 9. I was suggesting that based upon numerous posts on this subject, I have found that it is often the KJ who is thinking he knows what the customer is expecting from his karaoke experience and that the "better" the track provided by the KJ, the better the experience!

As good as a backing track might be, I realize that I am putting on a karaoke show! And to me backing tracks are what an entertainer might use in their business, karaoke tracks are what I use in my business to entertain people who come to my show to have fun.

I don't believe that the typical person is not out to sound like Neil Diamond, Engelbert, or the like, but some do. And sure, no one wants to sound bad, but there are people who will sound bad no matter what track you use and what settings you make. And shouldn't our focus be on everyone experience and not just what we believe is the best karaoke track produced of a particular song when the customer might not even care or know the difference? Or if you don't play the track they are comfortable with, would it really matter how good the track you selected was?

And the following considerations go along with my point #9, as well:
a) Some brands are consistently better than others, but people will still disagree over a particular track when comparing one company's product to another. I once told a fellow who retails karaoke products that I think the SC version of Cara Mia by Jay & The Americans was superior to any other rendition. He insists that the Legends version is better, or at least equal. So, we have to agree to disagree! Meanwhile, how many times has that song ever been done at your show. In eighteen years, other when I have sang it, I have only heard Cara Mia twice!
b) The more familiar I am with the original song the less likely that the karaoke track is going to sound like the original, anyway.
c) Some karaoke tracks sound great, but in the entire world of karaoke that is the exception. Most tracks are lacking if the original is the standard to compare the karaoke track to.
d) When I purchase anything I consider costs; it's a business decision!
e) When I consider purchasing tracks I have to consider the discs they are on. I evaluate what I buy based upon the total disc that the various publishers offer as compared to the exact tracks I am trying to obtain and really want.
f) I evaluate what I buy based upon my perception of the experience (level of enjoyment) that my singers are having with similar products.

Generally speaking, while I like the quality of Legends/Sunfly (and many others seemingly don't) I have come to to realize that their tracks, more so than with other major manufacturers, are sometimes abbreviated as compared to the original. And they are not the only producer of abbreviated material. Might that also be a consideration when evaluating what to buy?

And sometimes abbreviation is good. I know one venue that has an abbreviated version of American Pie!

Personally, I like to sing Sh-boom. There are two different "original" versions, one done by the Crew Cuts and one by the Chords. Then there are the various versions of each produced by different karaoke manufacturer's, along with mislabeling of which artist's rendition is being followed. In one instance the listing of the artist's name indicates both groups with a "/" in between the names! One groups original version has a bass solo in their version. One karaoke manufacturer includes a bass singer rendering that solo while others leave it to the karaoke singer to handle. Meanwhile, how many times have you heard any version of Sh-Boom done at karaoke?

Need I say more? I know I have probably said too much

Sounds like you are biased as well. Often picking the SGB version for the customer over others. Wouldn't run a show without them.
I am by no means brand loyal, however SC does in fact have a higher percentage of better tracks over most other brands - do I use them exclusively? No, in fact I have some tracks listed that are much better than SC from other brands - including All Hits, Dangerous - even Backstage in a couple cases. However given the choice of two songs available, chances are I would opt for a brand that has proven consistancy rate over one that is good here & there. As far as SGB I even have a couple that I actually list - but the reason is the song in question were not on other brands at the time when I needed it. I have a few SGB that I wouldn't ever consider listing because they are so bad. Some almost unrecognizeable - however luckily I do have those tracks on other brands. Even Music Maestro has some good versions here & there, but have alot to be desired for their rock stuff - ESPECIALLY the first few years they were out - I quit buying them around 95, but never heard an improvement when customers would bring in newer songs on their own discs - but it is what they were used to, so I let them sing it.

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Yes, everyone has biases. That cannot be denied.

But, I do not suggest to anyone, particularly singers, that I am using SGB because it is the best product line. It isn't and it doesn't matter. Besides, they might not agree. In short, there is nothing to be gained IMHO in discussing and evaluating with singers what manufacturers I offer, particularly if we end up disagreeing.

Many regulars who have and state a preference actually have mentioned DK of late!

I do suggest that I do not expect that any singer will have a bad experience if I cue up a SGB track

I choose SGB often because I am most FAMILIAR with that product line. I became familiar with it back in 1999 at private karaoke parties I attended. One couple had Audio equipment, a 3-drawer Karaoke player and the entire SGB series.

I also choose SGB because it was one of the first purchases I made as a KJ and I want to make use of the product line.

As to sound choice, if I didn't care about slowing down the growth of my library, I could have spent more money per track and purchased SC exclusively. However, I would have had a lot of clunkers, particularly if SC was all I had in the country genre.

And while I'll tend to turn to some brands other than SC for country, some of SC's country tracks are the best and they have tracks no other manu produced! For example, their selection of Eddy Raven tracks is fabulous. On the other hand, nobody but me sings Eddy Raven! So, we can go around and around!

Also, SC and Zoom are the only ones to produce a bunch of Gene Pitney tracks. While I sing several Pitney songs most people who do Pitney sing Town Without Pity. And with all of the Drifters song available, most people select Up On The Roof

My point? When you consider the points just made, SGB offered an excellent variety of tracks, at a decent quality for a reasonable price. And I use a good percentage of the collection.

And while SC maybe the best, generally speaking, we KJ's don't know what songs will be requested of us over time. Considering that we agree that is is the same tracks that are requested over and over, how much have we improved our business by purchasing SC tracks that are SITTING IN INVENTORY never or rarely getting used? That was an awfully expensive investment to make when an inventory of Legends tracks would have cost a lot less. And I could easily deal with the Legends version of "Cara Mia" if that was all that I had to use!

Eccellent variety - yes, reasonable price - yes, decent quality - i'll never agree. Again they do have some gems, but few & far between.


Well anything business related is an investment now isn't it. How much you decide to put into your business is up to you so I didn't mind one bit putting out the cost for a disc - but then I also only buy discs that actually have requested songs from the singers so most of my discs have been or are currently being used at one point. Sure there may be discs sitting idle, but that's a part of the business. And again, the majority of singers I get are quite karaoke saavy so the quality is alot more important IMO and will provide the best tracks I can, doesn't necessarily mean a particular brand, however again, if it's only out on SC or SGB - I will ALWAYS pick the SC version first if buying blind. 90% of the time I can be assured it's going to be a great version.
BTW Legends are another brand I don't care for as a whole - the few I do have have some unuseable tracks, 2 Bruce Springsteen discs, can't remember which songs, but it throws the singers off completely - how is that an enjoyable experience for someone?
You sure could build a house with the aid a $10 hand saw or a $500 skillsaw - both will get the same result - it's a matter of what the builder wants to invest.

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I understand (from above) that your decisions are based on your bugetary considerations which will help you to add numbers to your library at a minimum investment, there's nothing wrong with being cost-conscience.

However, my decisions relating to tracks have always been geared more toward the sound of the track and not the cost or the manufacturer.

And, you can create your own manufacturer biases based on consistency and selection.

For example; I'm willing to give ANY manufacterer a chance on a track-per-track basis and because of this and over the years I've become aware of the pitfalls and gems of many of them.

None of the manufacturers produce all gemstone quality tracks, but over the years I've a pretty good idea of the consistency (or lack thereof) of this group. There are a few SGB tracks that are REALLY GOOD.... and a few (more) that really stink. The Freddy Fender track of "Before The Next Teardrop Falls" on this brand is the ONLY brand that is lyrically correct and contains the spanish verse PLUS the music is just fine. All other manufacturers simply repeat the english verses and it's just dumb even if the music is good too.


The Music Maestro version of YMCA is really good... what pisses me off about it is that they knew it and it takes 21 seconds from the time you press "play" until you hear a note of music. "The Way You Look Tonight" on MM is also great music, but whoever did the sweeps either fell asleep, was drunk, didn't know the song or was from another country. So most singers can't sing it because they are rigidly locked into singing only when the sweeps move and not by the music blasting over their heads.

Pop Hits Monthly kicks butt on plenty of their tracks for the newer stuff and their version of "Breakfast at Tiffnay's" is MUCH better than the Sound Choice version...

The Sound Choice version of "Baker Street" in my opinion is actually BETTER than the original by Gerry Rafferty... The saxophone in this track is astounding. A very high level of "consistency" is credited to this brand but it is also with it's fair share of "duds" as well.

And you really can't beat Pocket Songs for their broadway stuff, hands down.

So my decisions are based more on the tracks that i believe singers will actually sing and what is the best brand for that track's availability.

And plenty of these decisions are based on rendition as well. For an eye-opener, play the following tracks back-to-back of the same song "Carry on Wayward Son" by Kansas on these brands; DK, Dangerous, Lost Classics (Priddis) and Sound Choice. You'll be amazed at the differences.

If you play "Wasted On The Way" on Priddis and Sound Choice.... You'll find it difficult to sing SC's version because you won't know which part to sing.... with the Lost Classic version you'd best bring 3 friends to sing with you because there are NO harmony parts or other vocals at all.

All In All, I'm not concerned about the "number of tracks" that I have in my library as I am about having the "songs people will actually sing" in the renditions that the best ---in my opinion--- that can be found.

Mr Staley

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. But it doesn't hurt to keeps ones budget in mind when shopping. And I, as you suggested, don't see any benefit of adding tracks to a library just for the sake of building a library, but it doesn't hurt when you first starting out to get the biggest jump you can get having an attractive initial library!

If the manu of your karaoke is the deciding factor if your show works or not then your show is not working anyway in my opinion. Most often the other factors are far more important.

Sure some manus are better than others, and even the best and worst have gems or stinkers.

The problem is that when you provide the information to the singers it is a question of several levels.

1. Do your singers trust you to know the relative merits of different manus better than they do on average.

2. Is the information about which manus you have more likely to lead to information overload with the first manu being selected by the singer regardless of quality.

3. Do the singers really have a preference.

For me personally I typed up books with and without the Manus on them. For my singers on average it led to more confusion then "help" when I had the manus listed. Maybe I was wrong but that was the impression I got. A lot of singers didnt know what to put and there was a clear bias to the highest listed one.

I still keep all my manus on the hard drive and try my best to go with versions that work, and if someone selects a specific version and I have it I will use it.

I also pay attention to the versions and I try to replace the ones that are not that good.

The majority of my singers are regulars and most of them will ask me to change a version if it is particularly bad.

A PERFECT example of why I don't overlook ANY manu, is the example you gave of "Before The Next Teardrop Falls", I really like singing this song, and I ALWAYS have to request that the karaoke host give me the SGB version, because of the reason you gave. ALL of the other versions are just plain STUPID. They should have just NOT made the track as far as I'm concerned. If I forget to REQUEST it, I can GUARANTEE that the SOUNDCHOICE logo will appear. Then I'm thinking, oh no, not this AGAIN.

Rosario

Yes, I DO breathe a sigh of relief when I see the Sound Choice logo come up because I know that the volume isn't going to be a surprise and the backing music will probably kick butt enough to get people out on the dance floor no matter what the quality of the singer. They have also done a good job on picking popular songs for their Foundations.

Doesn't mean I don't buy other brands. Doesn't mean that if a singer asks me if we have the Legends version of Janis Joplin rather than the SC we have listed in the book that we won't check our database and give her a slip with the Legends number on it to keep in her envelope. Doesn't mean that when a singer complains about a version that I won't buy the brand they prefer. Doesn't mean that I didn't buy 4 different versions of "Smooth" for someone until we got the one that seemed best. No, I don't do that for every song but "Smooth" is instrument driven and I wanted those drums in there, etc.

We have competition next door driving to drive us out of business with their huge song book. But their sound system is horrific and their hosts are constantly changing. We are trying to offer quality and service which means we talk to our singers about what kind of music they want and we take that into consideration when we "inflict our biases upon them."

Fred,

You just might have made the definitive post regarding this subject. I couldn't agree more except that I may differ with you in one regard.

I won't look for a better version of a track unless the song is frequently requested and the resulting performance is usually disappointing due to the track.

The Pioneer version also has the Spanish part in it as well, this is the only version as far as I know that I have of that track.

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