Karaoke Forums

Not when you use Latshaw's Songbook Generator.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Cueball posted this, which is consistent with what others have had to say about songbooks:


Then he had this additional suggestion for why songbooks should have manufacturer's codes:

I wonder, though, if Cueball would have had known anymore about the disc the singer was using if the songbook had listed the manufacturer, I'll assume - FC? Or would he still have spoken with the KJ?

The circumstances that Cueball described really got me curious. Which lead me to consider the following post of mcky57 made in response to Jian's question about how to produce a neatly organized songbook that clearly defines each publisher?

In Cueball's post he indicated how he was impressed a "Fat Cockeral" product which I assume would show up in a songbook as FC? Just recently I sang an unfamiliar version of a familiar song listed in the songbook as IM.

What if you wanted to try a song for the first time and you aren't even sure of the artist?

Now this is what you might find in mcky57's songbook:

Mony Mony
Idol, Billy.......................................................SGB
James, Tommy & The Shondells...................SC, IM, FC, TT
Kulay...........................................................SC
Status Quo...................................................CB

Say that after speaking with the KJ you decided you wanted the Shondell's version, which manufacturer are you going to choose?

Remember, this is your first time trying this song. If you choose SC, is that because you don't know the other codes (manufacturers) or because you'll always pick SC, all else being equal?

Or let's say you have been practicing the song but have the CB version. Which version will you choose?

As you can see, regardless of what the songbook includes or excludes there may be plenty of reasons to ask the KJ questions about his library.

As a KJ if you like to interact with as many people as possible at your show, how about making the songbook as vague as possible?

On the other hand, if needless questions interfere with you smoothly running your show, perhaps your songbook should include as many details as possible including your "rules" (which most people don't read)?

Hey, I think I have the solution to this pressing problem: How about those hosts who consider it part of the service to provide manufacturers in their songbooks provide them and those who don't think it is necessary don't?

I made my books like this for a while, and what tended to happen is that a lot of people would select the MM over the SC for the first song for example. Only a minority selected anything but the first one listed. Others got confused on the many different codes.


Sure for some songs the other manu may be better than SC but on average you would expect most singers to select a good version if they were really making an informed decision.

The situation may be different depending on your area, areas where people go to lots of different karaoke shows that list the manus may have more people who know specific manus. On the other hand the majority of my singers do not go to a lot of other karaoke nights regularly. It works for me.

It is the duty of the KJ to try and make as many singers sound as good as possible, and if that includes preventing them from making a bad decision in terms of song manu that is part of it.

Latshaw has a preference setting, whereby mine is:

DK,SC,PH,SI,CB,SB,ZM,LG,SF,Other


I just ask for title/artist. Sometimes people put a two-letter code, but not often. Usually, as you said, it is the first.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Hey, there's an idea. Thanks Leopard Woman! Geesh, all this discussion when apparently every person contributing already has the right way of doing it.

The serious singers carry their own version; hence, the necessity to be able to play singers' CDGs. The serious singers who don't invest in their own music (these are pretty rare at my shows) ask me and I advise. (I'm never too busy to spend 20 seconds in conversation with someone about the different versions I may offer.) The not-so-serious dabblers don't know the difference so I make the decision for them as to version if I have more than one. The last group, the drunk revelers, couldn't really care less what version they sing - you could put on a song that was just static and they wouldn't care or notice.

As usual it becomes a testosterone match ... something so simple ... must be a bunch of engineers on this board!

Many have claimed credit for this naming format. I started it on this forum years ago. Artist - song(SC).zip. My serious singers bring their own on a flash drive. I do not claim to provide all versions.

With the purchase of a huge SC library of discs (some used) I have a library of mostly SC. THM & CB about 13K The only dups are very popular songs. However I can put the old library with other brands in the data base..

It is a library from over a decade of selections made popular by singers and trimmed .

It is my pride. This is a photo of one page of a book.

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Good point.

If I were to look at a book that listed songs with the Manu codes, and I didn't recognize one of the codes (of a song that I might want to sing), I would ask the KJ, "What disc is this?".

As to your example above (for Tommy and the Shondells), if I never heard any of those versions before, the chances are, I would go with the brand whose quality I am most familiar with... in this example, SC. Now, if I had been practicing that song at home on a MM version, I might be hesitant in wanting to try one of your 4 versions (SC, IM, FC, and TT), but I would probably go for the SC version (for the same reason already stated), OR, I would look for another song to sing, and pass on singing "Mony Mony" that night... BTW, that is also assuming that you can't/won't play my own personal CDG with that song on it.

Of course, there's still the other fact which I mentioned (and this was regardless of whether the manu codes are listed in a book or not).... I heard a version of a song sung which I had never heard before (the version, not the song), and that made me want to go out and buy that version for myself. Chances are, if I were to have seen that song listed in your book with the code of FC or even FAT, I still would not have recognized the manufacturer, and I would have gone up to you and asked, "What disc is this?". BUT, now that I do recognize that manufacturer, if I were to see it listed now, I would remember/recognize the code.

In the front of our book (probably overlooked by most but available for the fanatics, none the less) we have a page that lists what each manufacturer code stands for plus a brief description.

Last night, I had a very unusual situation. 2 different singers complained about the versions on four different songs (they also all complained within 5 seconds or less of the song starting).

ZM Suspicious minds, (too fast ) so I swapped it for SC.
SC Ruby, Kenny Rogers (too fast) I had no other versions
SC Danny Boy, (too fast) so I swapped it for SGB
DK Sailing (too slow) I had no other versions

I asked both singers if they had a prefered version, so I could buy the one they were used to and it took me about five minutes to explain about the different manu's. I've asked one to try and remember anything about the screen he see's when he finds a version he likes. (eg yellow background / blue writing) or at best the brand, to which he replies "OH thats far too much effort".

To list the Manu's in everybook would cause more confusion at my shows, but there is a lot to be said for finding the right version for the singer (both singers were impressed that I tried to find a version they were happy with).

PS. if anyone has a good suggestion for a select-a-track manu version of Ruby or Sailing, please let me know.

You fail to mention whether part of their complaints were, "I sang this at someone else's show and..."

I don't know if it's helpful to ask the person what the color of the word-swipes or the background looked like. I've sen different color word-swipes for SC discs, so that would not be helpful to me, if you were to give me that type of description. As for the title screen, that would be the important thing to look for (since it usually gives you the disc's logo. The person who responded "Oh, that's too much work," may change his tune (pun intended) when he goes to another show and decides to sing those songs again. Maybe he won't take notice of the screen when the song gets queued up, but he may take a moment to ask the KJ what version he just sang from. And, after that point, that person will start to care what version he sings from in the future.... he may even start to take notice of the Manu Codes (if they are listed in the song books).

Do you mean Sailing by Christopher Cross? I've sung the Pioneer version, which is good. I think I have the Monster version also. I've only heard Danny Boy sung a few times, and have never liked the renditions I've heard. It should be slower, and it could probably be done with just a simple scaled down accompaniment. It might also be neat if there was a version with a harmonizing vocal added to it. The ones I've heard are two fast, and sound really "thick" and too schmaltzy-syrupy, for lack of a better description. It's a beautiful ballad. It should be slow, clear, and simple.

Although there are many mfrs. and they differ, there are two basic versions of this song.

Concert ( fast): Zoom and Music Maestro are examples.

Studio ( slower): DK and SuperCore are examples

I just ask the singer which style he ( or she?) prefers...

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" Disc based and loving it..."

It was me who suggested that they may have sung it elsewhere and therefore be used to a slower / faster version.

and the reason I asked what the word-swipes and background might be, is because at least it will give me a head start in buying a different version. "I don't like the one you have" gives me no clue at all as to which brand to buy.

@ seattledrizzle, It was Sailing Rod Stewart: just listened to Christophers Cross much prefer his song
@ JoeChartreuse I didn't realise there was such a great difference between the speed of SPC Suspicious minds and ZM, that is helpful to note.

No new singer has read the second page in my book for at least a year. (I have a list of the microphones I offer and what they do there) Plus neither of the two singers who complained looked in the book (they couldn't find the songs they wanted to sing ). So in this case manu codes would have been no help to them.
(thats not to say they will be no help to everyone).


I'm hoping that the singers ask the other KJ's what the versions are, but I hold out little hope. . . which is why I'm going to try and take an educated guess.

On a side note: The other thing that concerns me, is sometime we may hold to much value in the customer always being right. How many times have KJ's been asked to slow down a song and have just replayed the same version only to get away with it. I remember one night a customer complaining that Mustang Sally the Commitments was out of time to the original, working on a harddrive (Not mine, in house system) I had 14 versions across a variety of brands. . . all were out of time according to this singer.

I have practiced and sung over 300 different karaoke tracks, almost always listening to the karaoke version right after the original recording. I have never found one done by a decent manufacturer to be substantially out of time.

I think it is just singers blaming others because they think a song will be easier to sing than it is. I am sure that many of you have run into those songs, early in your singing, that seemed to have too many words to handle. As you get better, you can handle them more easily.

Now I have seen a few songs that have both slow and fast versions -- Walking After Midnight stands out there -- but not just randomly wrong timings.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

We have had people complain bitterly about their song being ruined because the tempo was wrong. Then they have happily sang the same version the next week when they were more sober.