Karaoke Forums

Considering that SC seems to be going "full steam ahead" in their efforts against pirates, the following post got me thinking about what we should/could be doing in light of the emerging change in climate to help ourselves get rid of pirates.



There are clearly downsides to discussing piracy with venue owners/managers. For one, you could alarm such a person to the point where he may decide to stay away from karaoke altogether.

Nonetheless, my HO is the time has come to start working from EVERY angle to take the pirates down. I have even considered putting the news articles about SC's efforts into my marketing material.

What do you think?

"People in Glass Houses Shouldn't Throw Stones"

My point is unless your are a SAINT in all aspects of your life and never do anything "questionable" or wrong.....Karma has a way of equalizing things in life

I think it would be sort of weird to ream SC on forums for what they are doing yet use it to your advantage for your business advancement. But if you are for what they are doing then I think every one needs to start talking about it. Or, if you are against SCs tactics, at least promote the fact that you aren't a music theif.

From my limited experience you may encounter a lot of resistance and ridicule. An owner may not feel that anyone is really checking or go on about all the other costs and fees they have and threaten to cancel things all together or even close the business rather than pay more for anything. But the closer SC gets to your territory, the more the tone changes. In fact I think that music stealing has gone on for so long that people think that is just the way it is done and any one else is a sucker. So the more people who educate, the more it will become apparent that stealing isn't going to be the norm.

Oh--another thing I thought of last night after an unpleasant encounter with a buccaneer in the grocery store--if a venue that has hired an illegal library gets in trouble for it and thinks you had anything to do with it then they sure as heck aren't going to hire YOU. And, yes, as Jam said, you better have all your own ducks in order because revenge is not out of the question in this situation.

I applaud SoundChoice for protecting their copyrights. More power to them.

What I don't like is a Salem Witch Trial attitudes pervading everywhere else. Let SC do their enforcement, and encourage Chartbuster, Zoom, SBI, and others to do the same. Give them information if you want -- knock yourself out. I encourage you to do it. While as a singer it would probably negatively impact me if people wouldn't play my disk or have a good library, it is OK. I will survive.

Just don't play thought police with me here. I hate the constant innuendo.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

So, let me see. Since I stole candy from Woolworth's when I was five years old, I don't have the level of sainthood required in order to report a burglary in progress?

And, BTW, many legit KJ's have gone out of business while "waiting" for the "KARMA" to catch up with them! Just MO

I am confused as to what reaming out SC on forums has to do with alerting local venues of SC efforts and the likelihood that they will soon be coming to a venue in your neighborhood? I hear that they are on their way to MASS and MD next!

If the people who are reaming out SC are doing so because they don't think SC should be doing ANYTHING, then it would be hypocritical and manipulative for them to castigate pirates when marketing their business, even if their business is legal!

If the critics of SC are pirates themselves, what more needs to be said? And it's unlikely such critics would be complaining to local venues about pirates!

If you are LEGAL, and all for Sound Choice achieving their objective, BUT you do not agree with their tactics what about that do you find weird, LL?

What I find weird is that you have been so infatuated on this subject that you can't let it go!!! What's the buzz? To tell or not to tell?

Hmmm! "infatuated"
–verb (used with object)
1. to inspire or possess with a foolish or unreasoning passion, as of love.
2. to affect with folly; make foolish or fatuous.

Perhaps you, Butsie, are not a KJ?

Or, perhaps you don't think that piracy has effected Karaoke operators?

Or, perhaps you think SC efforts are folly?

Or, perhaps you think that talking will accomplish nothing? I had hoped this thread might accomplish something.

Or, perhaps you think pirates will go away all by themselves?

The reason this topic keeps coming up is because more and more pirates are making it harder and harder to get and keep a job. The honest KJ has invested thousands of dollars in music & equipment. The pirate has not and is taking money out of our pockets.

Establishments need to be informed of the legality and ramifications of the situation. If they still choose not to listen or care, then who would want to work for such a person anyway.

I have a page on my web site that specifically addresses and explains this to bar owners in detail. The link is on the bottom of the Home Page. I think we must stand up and fight.

Alan
http://www.firelightkaraoke.com

Great -- stand up and fight. You can even have threads on this forum to talk about them. No one minds if there is an ongoing discussion.

Just don't make your war so total that the battlefield dominates this forum completely. That happens when you are liable to inject piracy talk into any old thread you want to put it in.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I agree Alan. I tell everyone who has ever been to a karaoke show, who has ever run a show for someone else, and to everyone who owns a business currently, pirates included - if you don't have legal music then be prepared for the boom to fall. Who knows when and where. I discuss this frankly with potential venues - if they are open to advances by pirates then they must pay the consequences. If they are willing to do that and shut their eyes to it in order to save themselves $20 in a night, then I question what ELSE is going on.

I am vocal about this and am willing to chirp like a canary if anyone in authority asks. Where, when, who, how long, etc. It hurts ALL of us who choose to stay on the legal side of this issue. One song, one hard copy. Simple. And ignorance is not an excuse, hence my desire to spread the word to anyone who will listen.

Anyone that's been on this forum for ANY length of time ALREADY knows about the piracy problem. Newcomers always hear about the subject SHORTLY after posting on here. The problem I have with this CONTINUOUS OBSESSION with the subject, is that it turns people who ARE, or WERE regulars on this forum away. I don't know if anybody else has noticed it, but some of the karaoke hosts with the MOST experience that USED to come on this forum, are NO LONGER posting. I've noticed that from time to time THEY will check in and comment something to the effect "Well, I see this subject is STILL going on, SEE YOU LATER." If we were actually ACCOMPLISHING something, I could agree that it is the MOST important subject, but all I can see is that it is just a CONTINUOUS subject of DEBATE. If you think it is accomplishing ANYTHING to dominate this site as the NUMBER 1 subject, I personally think you're wrong. If ALL karaoke hosts were coming on this site, I would say that we were getting something accomplished, but the hosts on this site are just a SMALL percentage of the people doing karaoke. The rest of the hosts NOT on this forum are talking about much more meaningful things than trying to make the WHOLE karaoke world free of pirates. They're talking to each other about things that will help them stay in business, and be a better karaoke host. I learned to stay away from piracy threads, but it seems ANY SUBJECT can be turned into one. Ok, my rant is over. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming!!!

Rosario

Did you ever stop and think that maybe this topic has hit a nerve with these so called "experienced hosts". Why? Because maybe they might not be 100% legal themselves. Not making any accusations, just food for thought.

Alan

CONTINUOUS OBSESSION
Thank you!!

No, Butsie, it's not like that. Thank you!

It is more like this.

It becomes an obsession/problem when it reaches the level as defined by mckyj57 in his excellent post below!


If we openly wonder about and discuss how successful SC will be, that's an ongoing discussion that is effected by current events, as they come to light.

If we wonder how concerned we should be about pirates IF WE HAPPEN TO BE SOMEONE WHO HAS NOT AS YET ENCOUNTERED ANY, this forum will provide excellent food for thought in that regard. Just considered Alan's recent contribution.

If I wonder if I am being influenced by pirates to invest more money in my library and wonder if others have encountered the same thought, that's what the forum is for.

So, Butsie, why are YOU reading this entire thread? My OP made it clear that it has to do with one aspect of the piracy issue. Are you trying to hijack my thread and change the subject matter?
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So, Karen, do you recommend gratuitously discussing piracy with new prospects or do you wait till they question your pricing as compared to others, or perhaps the size of your library?

What do you do?

Alan, this is food for thought. Since my name can be either male, or female, even though I SAY that I am a 6'8" male, I could just as well be a 5'7" voluptuous female. I realize that this IS cyberspace, and that ANYTHING could be possible. I can't believe I've just planted this seed in people's minds.

Rosario
Serenity Now Karaoke

Ps. No, I'm NOT available!!!!

Hmm, let me clarify again--and I will say that this is something I have been tossing about in my own head rather than meant as a specific accusation--because as far as this subject goes I have been somewhat on the fence yet tapping a foot down on one side and then back on the other as new info comes in. I am leaning toward the SC side with reservations but not ready to pass judgment until I see what actually becomes of some of these suits. So--

Let's say a person supports SC in getting rid of pirates but doesn't support their methods and is quite vocal in criticizing them. If a company does end up vacating a venue due to SC tactics that one finds questionable, does one not take the job because you wouldn't agree with how it became available or do you go for it? By that same token, there is nothing wrong with putting in your literature that you are against the stealing of music and why. But if you don't agree with what SC is doing, isn't it a bit weird to use what they are doing as a threat in order to gain benefit from it? I guess you could say, "I don't agree with this but you need to be warned it it happening" or something like that. Don't know--just thinking about it.

But I'm with Alan and Karen--for a year I believed that we must not have a very good show because everyone said that pirates can't hurt you if you are good and we were definitely having our opportunities shrinking. But more and more I noticed hosts on this forum who many said were good hosts starting to have trouble getting or keeping jobs. I started going out to some of the more successful shows and wondered how in the heck some were staying in business, let alone getting a monopoly. I have had to subsidize our operational costs with my day job and now that is in question. Pirates have hurt us and they have hurt people who don't want to talk about them anymore. I say, raise the awareness so that people don't think that "no one checks" and "no one cares" and that stealing music is the norm.

I've been reading a lot, but not saying much about the lawsuits - and probably won't say much until the situation here in VA is sorted out.

To echo Joe C in another forum, I absolutely support anti-piracy initiatives. I think the effect of the current slipshod investigative methods Sound Choice is using is likely to do as much harm as good.

Here's some of the effects in Richmond I've observed:

Richmond KJs named in the suit are not being offered an audit option. Their choices are settle or fight.

In December, there were 92 venues with karaoke listed on the Richmond Area Karaoke Guide. Now there's 75. That's an 18% drop. There's likely to be more going away as fans, venues and hosts bring the site up to date.

Several of those venues have stated they will never, EVER host karaoke again.

Some venues still hosting karaoke have told KJs not to use Sound Choice music during the shows they host

At least three of the KJs charged in Richmond were audited and cleared by Sound Choice in 2006.

One KJ from the above three was asked to become an "investigator" and refused. He was named in the suit.

What used to be a pretty laid back KJ community has become polarized. We see craigslist ads like this: http://richmond.craigslist.org/evs/1567150507.html (Note that this guy claims to be a KIAA member!)

and this: http://richmond.craigslist.org/evs/1569205332.html

On the positive side, one of the several karaoke "meetup" groups in Richmond has adopted this policy: "If we schedule an event it will be only at a karaoke place that we know is legit."

I'm hoping the net effect is good, but so far every KJ in town, pirate or not, has been splattered with stuff coming off the fan.

_________________
Dave's not here.

Thank you for an extremely informative post!

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

So, Karen, do you recommend gratuitously discussing piracy with new prospects or do you wait till they question your pricing as compared to others, or perhaps the size of your library? What do you do?

I first find out how they found me -- and ask them if my reputation for good karaoke has anything to do with it - most of my gigs come to me this way. Then I ask if they have been approached by other karaoke hosts.

As I begin to tell them about how I do the business, one of the first things I talk about is my library - only because I KNOW that most of the multiriggers succeed in temporarily getting shows by bragging about the size of their library. I tell them that 99.99% of the time I have the songs people want to sing so the size of the book should never be something they have to worry about with me, and nor is it a ruler by which to measure the value of a show. I really avoid discussing what other people make at their shows with a potential venue - so I don't let them make the connection between show value and the size of the library. I will advise them that after years and years in this business, my success is based on my business ethic - my desire and ability to provide 110% for them in making their venue a successful karaoke stop. I may ask if they have been approached by someone offering a 100,000 song library and will THEN get into the reasons why going with someone like that is in all probability not a good business choice for them. Like anything bordering on shady, most appreciate my frankness about this -- and that by merely knowing that the host has 100,000 songs, thereby making them probably 99.99% illegal, the venue bears some liability (re: fines, etc.)

I don't think we should come out with our guns a blastin' about this with a potential venue, but I do believe that a civil discussion about the liabilities that establishments serving alcohol do have, including the laws that govern entertainment (i.e., no drinks on stage, etc.) is the perfect time to bring up the potential problems (fines, reputation, etc.) created by hiring a multirigger or pirate.

Lastly, I will mention that as in all parts of life, we get what we pay for - I don't charge hugely MORE than most companies but I do have a huge investment and an excellent reputation ... and for an extra $50 or one round of drinks by a table of happy singers, why not hire me as opposed to someone who has a list the length of their arm of the venues they've come and gone from?

Hope that answers your question...