Karaoke Forums

If you run a good show, have a modest selection of legal songs that are often requested, you don't have to have songs that are requested by weird people who are obsessed with that one song nobody has heard of... ,......no pirate is going to put you out of business, unless he's just a better host than you are. If he charges less, evidently it's only temporary, or his time just isn't worth much. Investment aside, I'm not going to KJ 4 hours for 75 bucks, even if my songs and equiptment were given to me free........here's some food for thought though.....
1. format change.......not legal
2. cdgs from manufacturers(songs) without permission.....not legal
3. cdgs that state...not for commercial use......not legal
4. some of yalls attitude........legal, but should be... not legal.....
Sure, no one is calling these out yet, but like the gentleman said about living in glass houses........Pirates should be hammered, but I'll never blame them for my losing a show, I especially won't worry about them until it becomes an obsession........

That's not the problem Alan. The problem is that the "experienced hosts" are simply "collateral damage" in this "war." As "the word" gets spread that VENUES are being sued because of this entertainment, club owners will simply dispense with it altogether... and that doesn't matter at that point whether you are a pirate or not, there will be NO business, period, even for the "legal" hosts.

McLeod's is a perfect example. If you think club owners don't talk to each other, you'd be living in a dream world. Bar owners compare notes all the time and they act on them. That's why pirates have be able to kill pricing; they do it once and that owner brags to other owners that they "only pay $100" for karaoke and the rest expect the same deal from everyone else.

Does it fry my buns to think that the local pirates use a full set of DK for free when I paid $4,000.00 for each set of discs when I purchased them? You bet it does. But in the same breath that investment means nothing if there is no club willing to use this form of entertainment. McLeod's will be the shining example they will point to as the reason why.

You can go fishing with a hook and line.... in this case, the method being used is simply to poison the lake.

Well, Moonrider has provided much food for thought. Perhaps my thoughts of going in with my "guns ablazing" about pirates will backfire even more than I suspected? I wonder in light of the reaction that SC has generated amongst venue owners in Moonrider's area!

Now I have to apologize, but all I can say about the following post is "here we go again".



While the attitude that if you are good you do not have to worry about pirates was very much prevalent a few years back, I thought it had finally died.

People are learning the "hard way", that this isn't about how good you are, it's about economics.

More specifically, it's about supply and demand. If there are potentially 50 karaoke shows to be had in an area and there are 15 karaoke hosts willing to do 4-5 shows a week, that would pretty much put that market into a state of "ECONOMIC EQUILIBRIUM". Supply = Demand!

If 5 new karaoke operators enter the market, by definition EQUILIBRIUM is no longer there. And when the equilibrium is lost, there are only a few ways for it to be regained.

1. More venues must be opened
....................and/or
2. The pricing for karaoke must be lowered
....................and/or
3. Karaoke operators must offer "more for the money"
....................and/or
4. Karaoke operators must leave the marketplace

And the ease with which pirates can enter and leave the market puts the established and highly invested operator at a distinct disadvantage.

And while "nobody home" is UNconcerned about losing a show, I am most concerned about finding additional shows and replacing shows that don't work out. Of the two shows I had/have, one venue just went out of business after twenty years!

IF, and this is a big "IF", you are someone who is securely set in your existing shows, there maybe very little you have to worry about or have to do in order to keep your job (IN THE SHORT TERM).

But what if, unknown to you. you're in a venue that is struggling to survive and a different pirate shows up week after week trying to get your show by undercutting the price? There is a chance you'll eventually lose the gig, depending upon the finances.

Of course, a legit operator could undercut the price too. RIGHT.

But in the normal course of events ECONOMICS would limit the number of LEGIT karaoke operators in the area. OKAY?

Because of piracy, there could easily be twice as many KJ's as there would otherwise be. So, we're back to supply and demand!

And are you suggesting that no good host is going to be effected by the pirates... OR that ONLY bad host will be effected by piracy?

I can't help but disagree with you and to state that I believe that marketing environment for a KJ who is trying to pick up one or two more jobs will be effected by the abundance of pirates most of us have to deal with. More than 80% of the shows in my area are using loaded hard drives!

And even if a pirate is a great host, puts on a great show and is popular, is it fair for any legit KJ to face that additional competition?

Unfortunately, I believe that if the number of venues hosting Karaoke were plentiful and the jobs were there for everyone, no one would even notice the pirates. And, again, that would be unfortunate.

Well Said.

Alan
http://www.firelightkaraoke.com

I read this 2 maybe 3 times before I understood the point you were trying to make. Basically you're saying that if 10% of the people pirated, it would go unnoticed. Instead it's 90%, flagrant, and everyone noticed.

If I read it right, good point.

That basically was my point. I was just being more dramatic. I was saying if all of the KJ's in an area (legit and pirates) were FULLY employed no one would notice the pirates. Same thing!

I am not sure, though, if it has reached 90% piracy in too many places, but I'll say the figure is quite substantial in most places.

While some of the people with HD's had legit libraries at one time, when they left their disc-based shows behind everyone of them that I know of ended up with 10's of thousands of tracks on a HD in excess of what they actually purchased!

And while I don't condone what they did, I won't label such operators as pirates and I won't put them in the same category as someone who has never purchased a disc, buys a HD and ends up in business the next day!

And as for the real pirates, there isn't a month that goes by that I don't learn of at least one show being run by a KJ I have never heard of!

It is a classic race to the bottom. Once something becomes extremely plentiful and cheap, the bottom will fall out of the price. OK-sounding karaoke is available for a song. The problem becomes differentiating yourself not only with the venue owner but also the clientele.

And I can tell you folks, a lot of you aren't trying very hard. If you think Nady wireless mics are "good enough for karaoke", what's your differentiator? I can tell you it isn't excellent sound. You can't beat the pirates on library very easily. Pro audio mixers and amps are now dirt cheap, and it doesn't take much to sound fairly good. You can poo-poo Behringer and Peavey all you want, but a nameplate change isn't going to buy you all that much if you don't adjust the sound properly and have top quality all the way through your sound chain.

As a frequent show attendee, I can tell you that 90% of karaoke jocks out there have crappy sound. Flat. Out. Terrible. Vocopro mics are the rule rather than the exception. And not even the decent-by-comparison 5800 series. The crappy, terrible, VocoPro VHF models that with the compander that sounds like a school alarm buzzer when pushed.

The few shows that have a good library and excellent sound are well attended, and the jocks seem to work a lot in my area. They dominate the good venues. But there aren't many good venues out there. In a large market, niche market domination (i.e. white napkin/elegant, gay, goth, seniors, kids) is the best strategy to my mind.

The multi-riggers work cheap and they tend to permeate the neighborhood bars around here. I just ran into one that has 5 guys working for him. He has 5 identical songbooks, all Sound Choice and Chartbuster. It isn't the typical pirate load out as he doesn't have every title, but what sort of chance do you think there is that he has five copies of every disk? Five identical sets of VocoPro cheap-cheap-cheap wireless mics. VocoPro "mixer amps" and low-end Peavey speakers. The sound is awful. But they show up on time and are relatively personable. When that is enough to get gigs, you know the competition is not very tough. But who else will work for $100 a gig?

You might be able to differentiate with legal, but from what I have seen I doubt it. Sound Choice is going to have to hit a lot more markets before they can make a dent in this. I have heard of action in Phoenix, Knoxville, and Philadelphia. That's three of a 100 larger markets. And I am guessing they didn't make that much of a dent in those -- after a time, the people laying low are back out there.

If legal comes to be meaningful, boy am I well-positioned. Over the past four years I have invested in 1050 karaoke disks with 850 of them being Chartbuster, Sound Choice, DK, and Pop Hits. I do wish I could rent that library out.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Well stated and indisputable.

And often, the easiest was to differentiate yourself to a club owner is to charge less!
Which leads to the "cheap" your mentioned above.

I can't agree completely with your evaluation of what level of equipment is needed to differentiate ourselves with the singing public. I'm can't be convinced that better equipment will change the landscape very much for the majority of us. For one, not everyone is using Nady. For two, the typical singer is no where near as picky and discerning as you. For three, I know of established shows with great equipment that don't really pull in that many singers. And the reasons for that is the host's personality and how he runs his rotation!

I just believe at this point if the pirates aren't greatly minimized, the industry has no future. It will become a playground of hobbyists. Doesn't Dr Fred work in an area where KJ's can't get any real money from the venues? I don't know if what I am saying is correct and if it so that the circumstances have anything to do with piracy?

Not on a cognitive level. People can tell, it's just the way they say it. They might say "that place really rocks". Singers do know subconsciously when they can 1) hear themselves adequately and 2) sound as good as they can sound.


Not much to be done about that except that if you are the problem at least you have control of the solution!


It surely has an effect. I don't think anyone is arguing that it does. But that is not what matters. What matters is what you can do about it. Some places, quite a bit by differentiating yourself -- by being the best. Other places, probably you are screwed.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Yes, differentiating yourself is what works. I don't take gigs that are offered to me, even if they pay huge (one just offered me $250/night, guaranteed - more than that often) that aren't comfortable for me, and appropriate to the service I provide. I'm not interested in working in places full of drunk frat boys and dipsy girls. Period. Let some pirate walk in and take that. They're welcome to it.

I think location is really what speaks loudly here. What we experience in this area is basically a revolving door with the pirates - they start at a place, run it into the ground, move on, and the next one walks in. Sadly, by doing that the places they are moving in and out of are often taken off the list of places to sing by many people, especially people who are going out to sing more than just get drunk and holler into the mics.

All we can hope is that quality speaks louder than pricing.

I am reminded of an experience I had about a year ago - walked into a nice place, small to medium in size, very nicely decorated, well equipped bar, etc. They had hired a multirigger - HUGE dude, never got up, had a massively huge book that he said hadn't been updated since 1995 (!!!), and to just ask him, etc. I asked him for 3 songs, didn't have any of them - I had CDGs with me. I asked him if he could play them - he grunted, got rude, told me he COULD but ... blah blah blah. He did play them for me...I was one of about 6 people in the place. During the times when he had no music playing he was discussing his abdominal surgery in great detail - and asked if we wanted to see his scars. He then began going on and on about having gotten a divorce from his lesbian Filipino bride.... You get the picture... dude had NO social skills whatsoever but has multiple rigs and seems to always be working. I'm not sure WHAT kind of place this kind of behavior would fly ... He has moved on (duh).

It's sad that the honest KJ who has thousands of dollars invested in both music and equipment are being forced out jobs by people using stolen music. It almost makes you feel, If you can't beat 'em, join em, if that's the only we can compete and stay in business.

The only way I see this turning around is if every karaoke manufacturer, not just Sound Choice but all of them, form an alliance and have people to go out into the field to every bar in every city in every state that provides karaoke entertainment and do their thing.

We can do everything we can to try to educate bar owners but actions speak louder than words.

_________________
Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

I can tell you this, I am very experienced and am 100% legal and i have been here a long while.

I think the real problem with the subject is that there is a real frustation with piracy and no one can seem to get the bar owners to "get it" no matter what we do. And we the "real" kj's are losing gigs no matter how good we are or how good our systems sounds. We still lose to the "cheap" and usually "pirate" kj's. (I am not implying that all kj's that undercut are pirates but it seems that the most of them are "pirate" scum.)

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No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

Actually I do think my Nady mics are pretty decent.... I do like them better than the VocoPro's my friend has. I have never had one complaint about the mics, though I will be buying a wireless AKG system. Before the Nady mics I had two UHF SM58's, one went missing and the other quit working. Never again, too much to lose.

If you are in an area that offers $250 a night in a bar, then you are in a far different area than most of us. You can't get more than $175 here, and $150 is more the norm, with undercutters doing shows for $125 and $100. Count yourself lucky.

birdofsong

Bird, that is NOT the norm - most places are $150-175 -- this place obviously makes a LOT of money and probably has trouble keeping hosts because of the clientele - not sure...but definitely not interesting to me. I'm at a point again where I could be working 6 nights a week. Spirit is willing but the body just can't do a full-time day job and 6 nights. It's interesting to me and tells me that the temptation provided by massive song selection and cheap karaoke is being overridden by quality again. Just thankful.

Where i'll take it ! I love the party crowds......

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

After speaking at length to a Stellar Records rep, I can tell you that the KIAA is getting ready to get back in full swing and inform bars and other karaoke venues of the legality and ramifications of employing pirates. I know for a fact that they are starting in Chicago and working out from there. I was told by the rep that 600 letters went out in Chicago advising and warning various venues. The next step is investigation and prosecution. They are trying to do this in such way that they give everyone the benefit of the doubt before they send out lawsuits. Unfortunately, most of the KIAA are volunteers and because of this, expect it to be slow going.

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"Give me the Beat boys and free my soul..."
DJShannonNC - getelevatednc@gmail.com

My fear is that the more venues that get "threatened" by SC or KIIA or the other ASACP BMI or whatever....they might just kill entertainment all together.

I brought this subject to Kurt over at SC. Of course, he refused to comment....

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."