Karaoke Forums

Im finding i just cannot get the mics decent at higher volumes. Mics in use are SM58 wired, PG wireless, AT wirelss, cheapo wireless. Running through DBX PX out to QSC HPR 122's. Using Behringer compressor, no increased output, but have bypassed as well. I just cant seem to get decent mix at higher volumes. HAve tons of room on the music side but will have to push the mic faders past unity. Have gains set to just barely above 0 at peaks.
Im probably missing something but just cant think of what it may be as this problem only exists on one venue were at and I dont think we are trying to exceed the limits of the system. During our New Years DJ only gig at same place I had room to spare
Thanks

I do not think it is the mic pre-amps. I don't know what you may be doing incorrectly, but here are a few things I've learned that might help.

First of all, even good, $200+/channel, compressors start to sound harsh on vocals with much more than 10dB of gain reduction. You may try adjusting the channel gain knob or compressor threshold when a powerful singer is pushing the compressor hard.

Second, you could be clipping the mic pre-amp while applying a ton of attenuation / gain reduction later in the signal chain; and that will also sound harsh. If you aren't running the mixer with the main fader all the way up, try adjusting your other settings so you can do this. Lower the other faders or gain knobs. This will make your SNR a little worse but will increase headroom on the channel strips and mix bus.

Third, I mention the mix bus above, and it is conceivable that you are clipping the mix bus by bringing vocals well above the music on some songs. The same technique I mention above will eliminate the problem *if this is what's wrong*

Fourth, try fixing the problem with your wired SM58s only. Wireless mics are finicky and ignoring them (for now) will help you troubleshoot.

I think HPR122is should be suitable for a 150 guest venue with subs, or without a ton of boom-boom bass in the program material. My guess is you are not pushing them past their limits. Keep in mind that the ear/brain more readily hears "bad vocals" than bad "anything else," but if your music sounds fine, I agree, your issue is probably user error.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

you've asked us about a problem you're having at the console but forgot to tell us what console you have. I'd start by getting the compressor out of the loop (not bypassed, just disconnect it all together). Now get the trim (gain) dialed in on your mic channels with the EQ set flat and the pan set dead center. Now go through and EQ each channel and then reset your trim with the EQ in place. Leave the mic's panned in the center. That'll ensure your channel strips on the console are good to go. Now bring the fader up to the 0 mark for each mic.

Now the same for the channels you use for the music tracks, but leave the faders at zero.

Now, how are you routing the mic and music channels? Depending on what console you have you may have sub-groups. Are the mic channels assigned to sub-groups or are they assigned directly to the stereo mix? If they're assigned to sub-groups bring up the level on those sub groups to the 0 mark.

Now you can bring up the main mix, start talking on the mic and slowly bring in the music. See how that goes and where you're at. If you can now get the type of mix you're looking for at the higher levels, we can next go back and re-visit your compressor and ensure that you've got reasonable and appropriate settings there.

When you reconnect the compressor, make sure that you're seeing the same levels on the input meter as you do when you solo the mic channel with the compressor disconnected. Set your ratio to 4:1 and and starting at 0, bring your threshold down until you see the compressor start to "hit" only on you're loudest peaks on the Mic. This is where you want it, nothing more. If your compressor has the "Interactive" setting, be sure to engage that. Keep your output gain at 0 and if you have a peak limiter, set it at around +6 (you really don't ever want to hit that because it may not clip but it sounds just as bad).

See where that lands you and we can talk further.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Tonny , I think he is using Yamaha EMX5014C; as in the title of the thread.

This is a long shot; check to see if the gain pad ( normally located near the gain pot) is engaged or not. Just make sure it is not engaged for the mic channel. pressing that button will drop the gain by more that 20-25db.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Titles, who reads titles anymore these days?? Sorry missed that. OK so based on that, it rules out subgroups. I agree making sure the pad is not engaged is a good idea, however if his levels are checking out when he solos then the pad shouldn't be an issue.

This may seem like a stupid question to the OP but have you made sure the built in compressors are turned down all the way to 0?

One last thing, don't be afaid if your faders ride up a little higher than the 0 mark. One that's only an approximation anyway, and since you're compressed and most of the time the vocals will not be producing peaks, you shouldn't have to worry about your levels getting out of control.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

All the above is good advice except for one thing that was ignored: The problem only happens at ONE venue.

I he were all wireless, I would guess at a signal problem, but it appears on the wired mic as well.

Why only at one venue?

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Ooh. I missed that the first time . . .

I'm gonna say that it's related to a combo of modal resonance, comb filtering and non-modal peaks or nulls in the room. If this is the case, you may want to try setting up in a different area of the room.

Assumption: it's a fairly small venue.

Ethan Winer and RealTraps did a series of videos to demonstrate some of these things. Here's some you may find shed light on the problem:

ALL ABOUT DIFFUSION

COMB FILTERING

MODAL RINGING AND RESONANCE

NON-MODAL PEAKS AND NULLS IN SMALL ROOMS

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Dave's not here.

All I can do at this point is laugh.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Thank you to everyone for the advice. A couple of Jeffs suggestions I have yet to attempt. Schedule and all. I may just dump the behringer, and rebuild the gain structure anyways.
This venue is different because i have to place the speakers behind the singers.
Here is the area, note this is not my setup. I normally have one speaker placed where satellite banner on the floor is. i then move my TV more towards the middle of the floor to keep mics out of speaker range/
http://diablohillsgolfcourse.com/images/karaoke-med.jpg
This is not the biggest room I play in but because of the acoustics, it is the loudest.
http://diablohillsgolfcourse.com/images ... ry-med.jpg
Room is about 20 X 70 for main listening area.

last minute note, venue owner decided he wants his system used. now i have to work with a Crown MT1200 powering a pair of club 15's AND an 18 sub. He actuallly believes teh amp puts out 1200 watts. No crossover, no compression, no limiting.
This should be fun

Thanks again.

Yeah the MT1200 only pushes 425 watts PER channel into 4 ohms. Not knowing the actual model of the sub & mains, chances are it's no where NEAR what it needs to be to push them. Even the 8 ohm load is 295 watts per channel, your HPR cabs push more than this amp total.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

This is a critical piece of information you left out of your original post.

The problem isn't the equipment, it's the speaker placement.

Move the speakers in front of the singers if you can possibly do so.

If the owner/manager will not let you use a different speaker placement, your best option is to turn the music down until it's balanced with whatever gain before feedback you can get on the mikes and keep the overall volume below the point where the mikes feed back. There's not much else you can do to control the problem.

With straight DJ, there's no live mike picking up the sound from the speakers to start the feedback loop.

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Dave's not here.

Sorry about that. I realized as I typed it that it should have been part of the discussion. I forgot that I have made some compesations there.
Lonman, their speakers are older Yamaha SV.
It may be all for naught anyways. this "new system" went exactly as I expected. Zero headroom. horrid sound when pushed Not to mention they added a pair of old EV 18" three ways running off of a QSC USA850, and these speakers are firing ACROSS the top of the path of the mains into the downward slope of the roof. Putting their signal path right on top of the singers.
To top it off the guy that hooked it all up is a weasle of a competitor, a priate too, trying to convince the owner that he can run better sound and cheaper.
I think the writting may be on the wall here. Too bad too, good place when the owner isnt there.