Karaoke Forums

It seems whenever a bunch of DJs get together either at a local association meeting or national convention, the talk often turns to "How much do you charge?" This pissing contest infers that the more you charge, the better your DJ skills.

After meeting hundreds of mobile DJs and as president of the Seattle Disc Jockey Association, I can certify that's absolutely not true. I've seen $500 DJs with talent every bit as good as $1000 DJs. Could they charge more? Probably. But they're probably happy with their price point and feel they are being adequately compensated for their time.

Recently it seems the pissing contest among karaoke hosts seems to be, "What's the most number of people you've had in your rotation?" As if having 50 people waiting to sing makes you a better host than having 20 or 30 in your rotation.

This week I saw a local karaoke host post on their Facebook about their show,
"Amazing night ... 52 singers in the rotation!"

As a KJ I know that the average amount of time for a singer to come up to the stage, sing their song and get some applause is about 4 minutes. That's about 15 singers per hour. It has nothing to do with how "good" the KJ is - there are simply only so many minutes in an hour.

As a singer, I know that waiting through 52 singers X 4 minutes means THREE AND A HALF HOURS before I sing!

Perhaps as a host it's quite a feather in your cap to boast to your fellow KJs that you had so many people waiting to sing.

My take? I want to make my show a good experience for the singers...waiting so long doesn't contribute to that. So for my show my rotation hits 30 (about a 2 hour wait) I pick up the books and take a break from signing up new singers. Two reasons for that. First, I would not expect singers to wait more than two hours to sing one song. Second, I've found the longer people wait to sing, the more likely they are to get pissed off at the host then leave and go somewhere else.

I want my singers to have a great experience at my show! I would rather tell new arrivals, "Right now we're not taking new signups, because it's a 2 hour wait. If you plan on hanging out anyway, we'll put the books back out in an hour or so as we catch up." Although most people will stay anyway, some thank me for my honesty and let me know they hadn't planned on staying out that late and will come sing another time.

Singers, I can assure you as much as you hate waiting, I'm not bonkers about seeing you every 20 minutes to answer the "When am I going to sing?" question. I know when you're drinking that 30 minutes can seem like 2 hours. (Another reason I always write on every song slip the time that its handed to me.)

The host with the 52 singer rotation took exception to my Facebook comment, replying:
"Our singers don't just sing, they dance, socialize, truly ENJOY all the other singers and it's like one big happy family ... they all deserve to sing, and we'd never limit the number in our rotation ... we got not one complaint."

Every host is going to conduct their show differently. We all want to keep our customers satisfied and coming back. But the #1 reason singers come to a karaoke show is to sing! I personally can't fathom any singer waiting TWO HUNDRED EIGHT MINUTES to sing ONE song - and I certainly wouldn't - but if this host is making it work, kudos to them.

OK, your turn. As a singer (please, no hosts) how long would you wait to sing?

_________________
[font=Lucida Console]DangerousKaraoke.com[/font]
[font=Lucida Console]"Sing for the day, sing for the moment, sing for the time of your life!"[/font]

My usual rotation is usually 1 hour or so and that is plenty for me. No matter how you handle time management it can still be a challange when you have the non-regular singer ask "how long before I sing?".

I am a member of a local chapter of the ADJA and price does get discussed and everyone is all over the place on pricing. One of our goals is to get the bride (wedding) or the venue (Karaoke) off the price train and buy quality. I know it doesn't always work but I have been able to ask for a higher price for weddings by selling my services. Anybody and I mean anybody can play music or load a karaoke cd and call out "next singer...." but I am an entertainer and a host .

The other thing we do is to network even though we are competitors I booked a gig due to a scheduling conflict another dj had. That 1 gig more than covered my ADJA membership.

Sorry if i went a little off topic

_________________
No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

Back when I used to go Karaoke shows to sing I hated only singing once or twice all night, but now I'm thinking that might be the majority of places out there.

I usually went to smaller bars, VFWs etc. and with a smaller crowd you get to sing a lot more.

Now that I do a show where I get paid to sing for 3-4 hours at a time, I get it out of my system so I don't go to Karaoke anymore. I miss the social aspect of Karaoke and don't go out that much anymore unless I'm performing.

If you can't get up and sing one song per hour, the rotation is way too long IMO.

I would say it really depends on the show. For a great show with tallented singers, 3 or even more hours may be worth it. On the other hand with a bad crowd that really does not care about the singers 15 minutes may be far too long.


The singers know that, and if people actually stick around for an hour or even 2 to wait to sing they find that wait worth it, especially if they are regulars and they know to expect a wait that long.

The question is do the singers just sign up and leave if they dont get a turn in 20 minutes, or do they really find the show entertaining enough to wait their turn.

If there is a crowd of 20 or more fellow singers that are actually listening to the current singer and not off drinking or having a smoke while waiting thier turn, then it is a good show. People are willing to wait 20 or even 40 singers for thier turn in such a show is really enjoyable. If you are singing to a room with only a couple of people who actually are listening (regardless of how many people who are at the show) then it is not necessaraly a good show worth a wait.

Of course the amount of drinking really is a factor as well, if someone is putting down several drinks an hour it is not really possible for them to plan 2 hours ahead for thier singing turn.

The "Wait" that the singer is willing to spend to get a turn to sing is how much they value their turn at the stage. If their turn is worth 15 minutes wait to them, that is how good they think the show is. If the singer thinks the show is worth a 4 hour wait then they think their turn is worth that much and the show is that good.

I think that the REGULAR attendence at a show and the average wait to sing is a far better measure of the quality of a Karaoke show not the pay rate, a factor far more dependent on the local economic situation and level of competition.

This is where that ratio of singers to nonsingers really comes into play. You hope for about 70% listeners and 30% singers in a large room. I do a show at a local fraternal organization on Friday nights. For the last two weeks the rotation has hit 20 singers by about 15 minutes into the show. Before I even start I'm dealing with about 15 singers. Hoster lists the length of the show which is very nice - and I watched that last night - the show was 45-47 minutes long as far as the songs I had loaded, and I moved them thru like cattle with maybe 30-45 seconds between the singers, although a few times my bumper music resulted in a dance floor full of people, pushing that time to sing back a little. My job is to keep everyone in the room happy so maybe twice a night the singers will have to wait while the nonsingers enjoy the dance floor. Thankfully I'm not incessantly explaining this because even the singers enjoy the dancing. (This is the dancingest group of people I've ever worked with.)

As a singer, unless I'm a "homie" at the place I'm singing at, I will not wait more than an hour to sing, particularly if the host makes no effort to keep the rotation moving along quickly. Now if I'm with a bunch of friends who are also singers, and we're shooting pool, catching up, etc., and I know the host, I may extend that time a little.

I find what happens in this scenario is that people will very carefully choose the song that will give them the most bang for their buck with the crowd - and you get a lot of those oversung songs -- in other words, no one is trying something new or different .... zzzzzz......zzzzzzzzzzzzz..............zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Hell I have singers that complain that 10-15 minutes is too long of a wait some nights.
As a singer, if the sound is good, rotation fair, crowd into it, I have no problem waiting a couple hours between songs. Now if that was for my first song, that may be a different story.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I actually had one of those 50 singer nights the other night, and I gotta say this, "I hope it never happens again". As the host, it was hectic for sure, but as for the singers, I felt sorry for them because of the wait. The good thing was I actually made it through 2 entire rotations plus a few extras. The first rotation was 31, and then lost 10 at 9 o'clock (kids have to leave at 9) It built back up to about 40 in the second rotation. However, I was able to talk this large group who actually had 1 song slip for each of them, to sing together and count it as ALL of their turn. They were just happy to sing. The place was packed to say the least, and they had fun too. Sales were off the charts that night, but I still felt sorry for my regulars who usually get 3 or 4 songs in, and only got 2.

My big question is, "how do you tell new prospective regulars that they will only sing 1 if they are lucky? And how do we as hosts justify cutting off sign ups at 11 o'clock or earlier, just because it's busy?" For the first time in my history as a KJ, I actually had to cut off people signing up, it was just way out of hand. It's a fine line between the cost of success of the club and pissing people off.

Sure, we all want a large crowd of 100 or more people at our shows, with only a handful (15 or so) singers entertaining the larger crowd, that would be ideal. But the reality is that when we are successful hosts, our rotations get crazy sometimes, and we just have to deal with them at that time. Besides that, if we are only having 15 or so singers, and there is only maybe 30-40 people in the venue, then the venue suffers from lack of sales. My belief is this, our jobs are to make the venue money by taking care of their customers the very best we can at ALL levels of "busy". Turning people away is a very hard thing to do. Especially when these people might have spent lots of money, or became regulars to the very establishment you just turned them away from.

Does anyone have the right answer? Dunno

Can a bar/venue really make it worthwhile with a 10 singer rotation????

I am just wondering?

If the KJ charges $100 for a 3 hour show, with an average of 10 different singers an hour, that is not really cutting it.

If the KJ makes $30 an hour and has 10 different singers +5 others that are there to support singing friends (and some other number of people who are in the bar for non-karaoke reasons). That comes to only 15 more people in the bar due to karaoke than no karaoke. Is the bar really going to make more than $30 extra profit off the 15 people in an hour to make it worthwhile to pay the KJ???

Even if everyone in the bar (because of the karaoke) is drinking 2 drinks an hour average and the bar makes $1 per drink that they can spend on entertainment beyond other costs and profit, it seems like 10 singers +5 friends is not enough to keep the show going as something worthwhile to the bar.

How can bar's afford to pay a KJ unless they bring in a rotation in the 20-30 range, meaning 30-45 extra people in the venue because of the karaoke.

With crowds with a high number of non singers, and short rotations you have to ask if many in the venue are there to drink or whatever else and they dont really care about the karaoke.

I would think there usually is far more people in attendance than the people who came to sing. A good ratio would be 5-10 non singers for every singer. If everyone in the place wants to sing and you have 50, 60, 70 people that's just not workable. I certainly wouldn't frequent a place if I wanted to sing that I could only sing one or two songs a night. Maybe most people are satisfied with that, but I wouldn't be.

Sure a good ration would be just that, that would be ideal. However, that's not the case in MOST places. One of my shows, the one that was so busy last week, is a "karaoke" spot, not a dance club. It's total karaoke, period. People come to sing, and the ratio is about 1:1 or if i'm lucky 1:2, thats about it. So long waits are normal. Last night was a lot slower, and I still had 25 in rotation, and this is typical. So, if people want to party, then go to a party spot, if they want to dance, then go to a club, if you want to sing, then find a long rotation waiting. Cuz, like some people on this forum say, it's all about karaoke, right?

We have quite a few places that survive with fewer singers. The non-singer to singer ratio is about 3:1. I think the reason is that no one wants to go to a place that's dead, and karaoke provides the not-dead part of things. Also, if you have lots of female singers, guys seem to hang around no matter how bad it sounds...

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Your Cost Analysis of the above doesn't answer Dan's question. OK, your turn. As a singer (please, no hosts) how long would you wait to sing?

My answer is, it depends on the venue and the show. Although I would love to sing once every hour (like Stogie), I am perfectly happy singing 2 songs in the evening (average wait - 2 hrs). If it is going to be a 1-song night for me, I probably will never return to that show (because my opinion will be that it is always that busy there).

You are correct Cueball, we didn't answer Dan's original question. My apologies to Dan for getting the subject a bit sideways.

To answer his question from my standpoint tho, since I hardly EVER get a chance to attend other shows, and I have never considered myself a "singer", I don't mind actually if I only get up once. So a long wait isn't a big deal for me, just as long as the host is fair, and all the participants are having fun. That is what matters, right?

I am more of a singer than a host. In my case, I am not much into hanging out. I won't wait an more than an hour normally, but then again I rarely have to. I go early and am almost always in the first few singers. If the rotation gets long, we are normally out of there. We don't drink, and drinking is not a spectator sport.

If a place is busy all the time with hour-and-a-half waits to sing, we just don't go there.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

About an hour to an hour and twenty minutes is ok. If I can't sing at least three times in 4 hours I'm not going to be a regular patron at that show. I've had longer rotations, but it didn't make me any more money.

Depends if the kj is playing the Elvis mic hog bit that night, or if he's playing he's Super KJ. Most generally, if i can't get up to sing one song an hour, i move on to another show.

_________________
Sweet Little Me In Karaokeland........

Let me apologize...I realize that many hosts are also singers who go to a variety of other shows. (As do I.) My purpose in saying "no hosts" was that I was looking at this from a singer perspective rather than hosts trying to justify their long rotations.

I'm probably with BigJer on this one...3 songs in 4 hours is probably my expectation as well.

But for the hosts...is there a magic number of people you have in your queue at which point you'll temporarily stop taking new singers?

_________________
[font=Lucida Console]DangerousKaraoke.com[/font]
[font=Lucida Console]"Sing for the day, sing for the moment, sing for the time of your life!"[/font]

I like to sing at least three songs. Saw one live band Karaoke charge 5-10 bucks for those long songs.... Freebird, stairway, Piano man, American pie.....etc... Kept the songs moving without those.

It depends on the venue, rotation, and crowd. But I usually try to get signed up before it starts to get in the smaller rotation, judging by the added singers and when the KJ lets how many in the rotation until starting a new one with adding a new singer between the older ones. Do I have friends there and have they sung yet, what will I be drinking and how much I'm gonna spend, is there something else to occupy my time (bar trivia, a good game on tv, that drunk flirt who I've got some good chances with) and also how the crowd is (looks like I'll be singing country all night to appeal to the majority) And also when do they start and how long they'll go. I'll be satisfied with three songs and since there's already plenty of business for the KJ, I guess I can head back home and get some needed sleep. I dont want to get too tired at work because I stayed out late to get in that fourth (but I'll still probably stay up watching some meaningless movie or tv show that I've seen a million times and I probably have it on DVD so I can watch it whenever I want to)

As a KJ I always do my best to get a singer's second song up between 55 and 90 minutes MAX from their last song sung. Which is dependant on how long the rotation is, bigger rotations get a longer wait. People sometimes goes somewhere else if they have to wait very long, as there are a lot of great clubs in Seattle close by.

As a singer, if I am trying out a bar, I stay there as long as I possibly can and still get home before the bus stops running. If it is downtown Seattle I stay till closing. What drives me away from a place is when I know there are only 6 people signed up ahead of me and it takes 80 minutes, between long transition music, and people paying only $5 to cut ahead of everybody. Sorry small rant. But I am a die hard Karaoke person. I think a rotation from turning in a slip is too long after 22-25 singers or about 100 minute wait.

As a KJ I would never take the slips or books away, nor would I stop taking slips. I was getting handed at least 3-4 slips per song sang on a busy night and most were first time singers, which is pretty common. Before that it was about a 55 min wait from the time they turned in a slip. So after 14 singers I finally got to the first of the large stack, After getting through about 5 of those singers, I must have called up 5 singers before someone came up, then another singer, then I had at least 10 more no shows, finally 5 people sang, and then another 5 no shows. Some singers are fickle and think that a whole 20 minutes is too long to wait. So you get the point it went like that for a while. If I have enough slips to take me to closing, I would tell them ahead of time "You can turn in a slip but I can't guarantee you will get to sing." It was about 10:30 that night. It never hurts to have some backup slips at the end of the night just in case enough people didn't stay to sing. A busy night I would get roughly 87 slips by 11:30, but only 50 or so songs could be played. About 42 Singers got to sing all together, so about 8 got to sing twice. I was really stressed with that many people leaving.

Put it this way if they are going to leave because they have to wait, even if it is 30 min, if they turned in a slip and they buy a beer, Great. If you tell them sorry you can't turn in a slip because the line is too long, they will just leave. Booooo. But if you tell them how long the wait is, maybe 120 minutes, they turn in a slip, still buy a beer, and take off after an hour, mission still accomplished. It is only us die hards or patient people that will wait the two hours if that is the norm for that place, and grumble all the way. Although if it was me, I would go on a less busy night the next time.

The point being is that if it is a busy night (anything over 25 singers), the most you can do is be upfront about the wait and let them decide, most will want to turn a slip in anyways just so their name is in the till, just in case there is an opening.