Karaoke Forums

I've seen in the past, questions about what is the best version of this, or that track asked. I was just wondering if there could be an (on-going) topic where we could go to on the forum, and put in a song name, and artist, and take a concensus on which is the BEST version. By BEST version, it would mean (simply) CLOSEST to the ORIGINAL. I think this would be EXTREMELY beneficial to us as Karaoke Hosts, as it is virtually impossible to know EVERY song, (not to mention) every version. This way, we could make more intelligent decisions when at our show, instead of just taking the best known manufacturer. In addition, we may NOT HAVE the best version of a song, and could make a MORE INTELLIGENT decision when buying. Does ANYONE think this would work, and (if yes) how can we do it? I know some will say that the best version is VERY subjective, but as I said IF the ONLY criteria is CLOSEST TO THE ORIGINAL, it should be easy for MOST to agree. OK, that's the IDEA, what do you think?

Rosario
Serenity Now Karaoke

I like the idea: though rather than the best... just list the qualities the track has. I spend a fortune re-buying tracks I already own in search of a better version (started with SGB ), I tend to stick with zoom ( i like definate endings) but customers are fickle things and certain tracks I could do with others opinions. The one that springs to mind is "Turn the page" I only have it on Supercore, and I know most of my american friends would be able to find a better version in seconds.

I've also picked brains before on "Paradise..." because none of my versions had both parts on the screen at the same time. In a couple of days I brought the DK version, perfect for drunks (it's down a key) and those who do not know the parts.

By chance I've recently found a version of "I know him so well" with both parts at once, but again this could have been a wasted £2.

in short: I'm all for it. How to do it??? No idea

Extremely difficult to do. In fact, I won't even agree with your premise.

If the music is close to the original, but the lyrics are borked, what does that mean? If the original is extremely difficult to sing to, and some fuller instrumentation can make it easier for the singer without greatly detracting from the overall sound, what then?

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

The closest to origional is a difficult concept at best.

One problem is that many artists have quite different versions of their songs that are in circulation. Some sound quite different and here we are talking about the ORIGIONAL artist singing the songs. Of course a different version of the song can be difficult if it is not what you expect.

As for the manus, none are perfect, and all have a few songs that they do better than their competition. Some manus have more strength in one genre of music but are weak in others.

I don't accept the view that "If I have Sound Choice" (or any other company) then no-one should complain because they are the "best".

All we can do is get the songs that the singers want to sing, and if one version is bad enough to need a replacement, then do so.

Much of the difference soundwise between the different companies is how they were recorded, and some are made (much) louder than others, while others need a little help (or need to be turned down) in specific ranges on the EQ.

Even "true to origional" may not be perfect as sometimes a bit less (or more) insturmental track at specific times when the singer is singing makes the song more singable by a wider range in Karaoke. The origional singer may be able to overpower loud guitars and drums, but your Karaoke singer may not. It may sound better to have the insturuments less loud when it is at the same time as the lyrics, in other cases the opposite might be better for the AVERAGE singer.

Also if the origional had an intstrumental intro, outro or break of 2 minutes, I would not cry if the Karaoke manus cut it down to 30 seconds even if that makes it less close to the origional. I bet few singers would mind as well most of the time.

PLEASE, let's not "pick this apart". You guys are WAYYYY over-thinking this. I'm not saying that this is re-inventing the WHEEL. Just an idea, that MIGHT be helpful. I'm not worried if the singer can sing the song or not, that's THEIR problem. But what I am worried about is a singer saying that the version I have is crap. Sometimes you don't even know what the song is SUPPOSED to sound like, so you could come on the forum for ADVICE. I didn't say that ANYONE'S opinion would be etched in stone, but if the versions got narrowed down to maybe 2 the person asking the question could take it from there. ALSO, when the kj's on the forum gave opinions, they could state "I think this is the closest to ORIGINAL, (but) would recommend this different version because: (state the reason) Also, in closest to ORIGINAL, I'm speaking of correct lyrics also, I thought that would be automatically understood. Any other opinions? Just thought this could be something that could help us to help each other.

Rosario

Then don't put out BEST == CLOSEST TO ORIGINAL as if that is a karaoke axiom.

I would love to see such a database. I would even provide the server to host it and some programming if someone wanted to flesh out the concept.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Well, now that I've explained the concept a little more clearly, some other people may want to give their opinions. I was thinking maybe like they have the song chain, or trivia subjects, there could be an on-going thread on this subject. Maybe some of the moderators could chime in on this to let me know if this is pheasable, practical, or possible. If not, so be it, it was just an IDEA.

Rosario

No need to knock the SGB all to heck all the time. Their Cream renditions (and others) are right on for 60's era music. I don't think Sound Choice could do justice to 60's hard rock. (IMHO).

I agree that this might be a good place to get valued opinion if you looking to buy or replace a track that's not being received too well by your singers. Those who have more than one rendition of the song in question should be able to give you some incite. Especially if it's a song that gets airtime (sung at lot). I would make recommendations on ones I know something about.

As far as a database, the info may be somewhat tough to categorize. If one rendition has lyrics that are way out of sync is one thing. But someone may just like the sweeter sound of a SC over a Chartbuster of the same song.

Let's give it a shot though. Gather a few song names and let's see what happens.

You have a "no starter" with me the moment you knock SGB in general terms. Even specifically, we can't get agreement about SGB. Someone suggested just recently that the SGB Cher tracks are horrid while someone even more recently countered with the opinion that the SGB renditions of Cher are right-on!

Need I say more?

And btw, I have very few SC discs in my library and don't miss but a few tracks that I would like to have for my only personal enjoyment. These are tracks of artists that have been neglected by the other companies. Other than that, I am quite pleased with my library and the limited representation of SC. So I can't compare most of what I have to the SC renditions.

And considering that most people try not to duplicate tracks, how many instances do we each have to make comparisons. Even running around 30% dups these days, which is a lot, that leaves 70% of my tracks with nothing to compare to!

I do note in my database when there is something particularly bad or good with a track. That effort maybe a worthy endeavor for us?

For example, most versions of I Left My Heart In San Francisco lack the original intro. The absence of the intro is actually beneficial if:
a. a singer isn't really familiar with the song and may not realize that there is an intro which could "throw" theml
b. the singer isn't all that good and might find singing the intro challenging
c. if you're trying to "speed through" the rotation.

So... when that song is requested I ask the singer: "With or without the intro?" If he doesn't understand what I am asking, I just say, "no problem, I got you covered" while I cue up the version without the intro!

I didn't mean to knock 'em honest, I just used them as a valid example of why I need to replace (some not all) tracks.

Tovmod, you've made another valid point why this topic would be beneficial. If 70% of your library is non-dupes, and you have nothing to compare them to, if a singer tells you that your version SUCKS, you could come on the forum and ask other kj's what versions they have, and which version would they choose as the best, and why they would pick that particular version. Then after getting some feedback, make an INFORMED decision if you need to get a new version. That's better than looking it up on a database, and picking ANOTHER version that you know NOTHING about. If it becomes a thing of someone ALWAYS saying that SC is the best version for EVERY song, you can take their advise with a grain of salt, OR you can IGNORE their suggestions in the future. The same for kj's that say NEVER use SGB because it's junk. I think if we keep an open mind about this, it COULD be beneficial to us all. Even when needing to purchase new songs for our libraries, if we were going to get a custom disc, with various songs from various artists, and various manufacturers, we could ask what are the best versions to buy. THIS to me would be a TREMENDOUS help. NONE of us can know-it-all, but collectively, we could have the best libraries that our budget will allow. We wouldn't have to buy 5 versions to find the best one. I may be just dreaming to think that we MIGHT be able to come together on ONE topic, but I hope NOT.

Rosario

It would be great to have. It would be easy to do. What isn't easy is attracting enough input to give you a meaningful data set.

The way I would see it happening was if FastTracks or Musicbox Deluxe lent their database out for attaching these references to. Then when someone searched for a song they could get a link to user input on the tracks.

Of course you can do something like that with one of the note add-ons for Firefox, but that is hard to get people to use.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

But even if a singer tells you a version sucks, you have to take it with a grain of salt as well. I've had this happen in the past & asked which version they are used to, in which they told me - which I actually had, so they use that one now when she sings it. Now musically it is very tinny, no lows, the lyrics aren't accurate in comparison to the one that actually sounds like the original (which is the one I list). Their reason for not liking the 'good' version is because they are used to the other version - probably because it was the version that came out first and they cut their teeth on it before a better version came out a couple years later.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

It would be good to have a way to "review" tracks, without having to pick the best one. That way people could give their opinion and people could go with what they like.

And re SGB Cher: I said that the sweeps and lyrics on the SGB disc (the one we have, anyway) made the songs unsingable. I think the person who said that "horrid" sounded just like Cher was making a joke. I didn't review the music backing.

Lonman, that's why I'm asking if this would be practical, because if someone is used to singing a certain version, that's one thing, but if they tell you that your version is no good, but don't know anything about manufacturers, (you), as the kj, should at least know if this version is CLOSE to the ORIGINAL (for lack of a better word). None of us can know every country, pop, rock, heavy metal song. We might even come on here, and NOBODY will know the song, but at least we could have a place to go to MAYBE get some feedback on what OTHER kj's are using. Most of us have different type of singers, I may know alot about what country songs, whereas you may know alot about heavy metal. All-in-all, I personally think it would be helpful, but like I said, it's just an idea. Just thought I'd throw it out there. I know there are alot of variables, but STILL think it's worth a shot.

Rosario

Try this for an example of "best" or "closest to the original":

Synchronize a karaoke track with the original and fade the music back and forth....

Do this with the orginal "My Heart Will Go On" by Celine Dion and the Pocket Songs Track #16 off disc PS1262....

If you do it right, you'll only hear Celine's voice disappear.... and the lyrics and sweeps are great.

A perfect track IMHO.

It may be a good track or not but syncronization with the origional is very much a secondary factor in being true to the origional in my opinion. A song that is 3-5 seconds longer or shorter by the end may sound nearly identical to the origional in sound and feel but a song that is dead on for the timing could be a horrible version in terms of being well performed. Sure something that is compressed 20-30 seconds longer or shorter may be noticeable, but something that is within 5% of the origional timing is going to sound nearly identical (timing wise).

Look to origional artists and you realize that if you buy different recordings of the same song, even when the versions sound similar they are often a few seconds different in length.

Oh Well, I guess this WON'T be happening, as it is PLAIN to see that EVERYTHING has to get completely torn down to the most minute detail. Who the heck is going to be scrutinizing the tracks at a karaoke show to see if the ending is 2 seconds off. Sure, this all makes for GREAT DEBATE, but can't we sometimes check our egos at the door? I just thought it MIGHT be good to ask other karaoke hosts what their thoughts were on one TRACK, so then I could see how many liked this one or that one, and why that particular version. I can ALREADY see that this is pi$$in' in the wind. It AIN'T gonna happen, so, I'll let this topic fade into OBLIVION.

Thanks,
Rosario

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming!!! "Pirates Of The Caribbean" anyone?

Rosario

You should know better than to try and do something like this You've been around long enough, all you will get is NEGATIVE information from some willing members

The "best" or "closest to the original" track is very subjective --you might as well ask what is the best SPEAKER to use --Everyone has a favorite.

Moving forward it may be helpful to just target the tracks that SUCK versus the ones that are good. BUt even then you will have some arguments that one version is better than another.

While we're sort of on the topic, anybody know a good version of I'm Gonna Be (500 miles) by the Proclaimers? The version I have is terrible.