Karaoke Forums

I wanted to share my situation with one of my gigs with all of you.

First, a little overhead info: I currently only have income coming in from karaoke from 4 gigs a week, still looking to book more, but with roughly 40 karaoke businesses in a 50 mile radius and living in West Michigan where there is 16% unemployment and bars going out of business left and right, getting new gigs is like pulling teeth. The high unemployment is also why I currently do not have a job, in addition to going to college.

I have been doing gigs for a little over a year now, and it took me 3 years and $15,000 to put together my set-up. By doing so, I have the largest karaoke library of all my competition (outside of the 100k hard drive pirates), pretty decent sound (but I'm still learning), and include lights and props (I have the only business around that does props). I also spend money on ads and posters/other marketing materials since the bars seem to have no interest in promoting karaoke themselves. My shows have always been a good time for everybody and seem to go quite well.

The problem: All of my gigs are far away and I use $15-$20 in gas hauling my trailer to these shows. One gig is brand new, so if it sticks who knows, and another has such poor attendance usually (say 7-12 people) that I often only get $40 for my time and gas money essentially because the owner makes no effort to bring in clientele and it is a small Diner/Bar. That gig has been going better lately, but no guarantees of future business, as Summer gets really slow. But the real problem lies in my first gig.

I agreed to take a 15% payout with a $200 max and a $75 min for this gig. Sounded great at the time, and it was also my first gig so I was more willing to negotiate. What has happened since then in the past 14 months has really been the equivalent of me bending over and well...you can fill in the rest.

To start, they have only been paying 10%, not 15%. Apparently, without me being informed this, they decided it would only be 15% if the z-tapes were over $1000. Second, they have been basing this strictly off of the 4 hours I run the show, not the night's total take. I was never told this part either. I would also argue that they doctor the numbers even further, since I have never even been showed the tapes. To sum it up, almost every gig I have done has paid $75, including nights the bar is packed to capacity. I have only made more than $150 twice.

The patrons of this bar are upper class too. Mercedes, Caddys, and BMWs. One one night in particular when the bar was packed and I was paid $75, I saw one of the regular's tabs. it was almost $100 for just that one person. In addition, I have very often gone 5 or 6 hours too. The last time I ran 6 hours I was paid $85. a few weeks ago after another packed night, I once again was paid $75 and called the head manager that I am under and said, "no more, pay me the going rate or I am done". He claimed he would talk to the owner about it. I asked him about it again last night and he said he didn't even talk to the owner because he knows he wont pay it. I gave them 2 more weeks to give me an answer.

Other things that tick me off about this bar: It has 4 sections. The main level, if you divided it into thirds, has a section that is 2/3 with a stage, and 1/3 with just a bar. I am stuck in the 1/3 section, because the owner is too cheap to pay more than 1 employee to handle the potential 60-70 customers that will be in that smaller section. That means that one person is making more money than me, considering wages and tips. In addition, he just brought in arcade games 2 weeks ago and I have almost no room to set-up now.

I have also talked to several other people in the entertainment business up to 50 miles away from this bar and none of them will touch the place because they all know the owner screws everybody on pay. He has been described a s a Dutch accountant who is also a lawyer.

So, the bottom line is it looks like I am out of a gig if I insist on getting paid what I should be paid. And I refuse to back down at this point. I have the best set-up around, and deserve to get paid what the other companies get paid. The good thing is that I have a good following with the regulars, so I may get called back and actually get paid the $150, but I'm not counting on it.

What would you guys do, or how can it be handled better? Remember, my only income at this point is karaoke, and gigs are hard to come by where I live. I could start the tactic of trying to steal gigs, but I haven't stooped to that level yet. I am also going to start looking for at least a part-time minimum wage job again, because that is all there really is where I live, and I can't work full time with college and gigs. In this economy, would you just keep getting screwed on pay? I end up clearing $60 after gas on this gig. I've had it! A year of this is more than enough. I'd hate to loose it, since it was my first gig and I've made a lot of friends, but I refuse to be taken advantage of anymore.

Sorry for the long rant, but as you can tell if you read it this has been dragging out for a year!

Well, one of the things that have been discussed in past topics many times, is that it is not worth it to do a show for $75. But, then again, there are some that do just that, and some work for even less (haggling for free drink and food). Since you stated that you really need this money, and you are working in an over-saturated area already, as far as advising you on what to do, well, that really is your decision to make.

You said that you have been at this place for over 1 year now. I am curious, how long were you working at this show before you realized that you were being jerked around? From what you described, this place has claimed that they rarely rang up more than $750 during your 4 hour shows, and on those rare occasions when you stayed an extra 2 hours, they only rang up $100 more (I'll refrain from chastizing you further on this point of only making $10 for 2 hours of work).

As far as working for a percentage of the Till, well, I think you have already begun to see the downfalls of that type of arrangement. There are other factors that you didn't even mention.... like, there could be people there that were attending your show and running up a tab, and then stayed past your show (of which the bar stopped their tally for you), and these people are still spending money, and have not been rung up yet (so their fraction of a tab wasn't included in your tally either). Your best thing to do is to ALWAYS charge a FLAT RATE.






I hate to say this, but you have let this place take advantage of you for quite some time now. I suspect that you are correct in your suspicions that you will probably be losing this gig by pushing the point of more pay. BTW, what are the other companies making (since you mention that you should be paid what they get)?

I don't know the take on the other bars, but I would argue that most of the time it is probably less, with the exception of one of my gigs which is probably about the same take, where my pay is $175 for a Thursday but I'm running a full six hour show. I know I've been being sapped for a while now, but until I had other gigs to replace the first one I didn't have much leeway in fighting for more pay. If I lose this gig, at least I have added another night to take it's place. It has only been the past 4 months or so of me complaining to other people about the situation where it seemed like I was getting screwed that I found out all the "bad" hype about the owner.

So yes, I have let them take advantage of me for a while. But it was my first gig, and I'd hate to see it go. But at this point I'd rather take a minimum wage job at 15 hours a week knowing that is all the job is worth to replace the money I'd loose by refusing to get shafted by this bar anymore. I feel at this point it is more based on principle. If the Diner I am at can only bring in $400 and pay me $150, there is no excuse for a place to get away with making a grand and refuse to pay me more than $75. I figured that if after 1 year, I'm not earning what I should, it's time to go. I know the bar is making money. The owner just refuses to pay for anything and has a reputation for doing so.

Also, the drinks are supposedly tallied in the computer by when they were ordered, but as stated I don't trust their system at all when I see the bar packed with higher end clientele all night and they claim to have made less than $1000. I would argue they are accounting for the cost of wages and alcohol to get those numbers, .

Heck, I'd even take on a Monday gig which is guaranteed to be slow for $75. Typically I'd charge $125 for a Monday, but not around here! And at least I would feel I was being paid what it is worth for a slow night, as long as it was in town without the gas overhead. I did a bid for a place for a Monday a few weeks ago at $100, but apparently that was too much, since I haven't heard back . I had another place inquire for a weekend but haven't heard back when I told them I charge $150. They also asked if I pay someone to run my show or if I do it myself. Apparently if I'm running it myself I should get less pay, . It really seems that bar owners are just too damn cheap to pay for entertainment these days. Of course, the discount kj's in the area aren't helping any.

Oh, and far as haggling for free drinks... Since I started complaining about the pay they have added a DJ that runs until I start who works strictly for tab. I'd be willing to bet in 2 weeks he'll be running all night for $75 plus tab
A couple weeks ago said DJ offered to buy a copy of my library off me for a couple hundred, which is a HUGE insult considering I have spent thousands to have the most unique catalogue of music in the area, like I'd be willing to part with that for a couple hundred. Then he could run the karaoke for the $75! YEAH! What an insult.

screw 'em.

Purple, from your accounting of events, it unfortunately seems like your current financial straits are preventing you from "taking a stand".

To effectively "take a stand" you have to be prepared to walk away from the gig. One of the bits of wisdom my Dad once told me is, "The 2 most expensive words in business are 'F*** you'." The way you describe your situation, you have to take every dollar you can get.

It's already apparent that you working for a percentage of the ring isn't going to be fair compensation for you. And that management isn't "sold" on karaoke to the point where they want to support it with advertising or personnel. With the deal you've given them, they haven't got much to lose by having you there.

So I'll reiterate what's been said:
- Working for the door (either a cover charge or straight percentage of the ring) is guaranteed to have you taken for granted.
- To be successful, promotion of a karaoke show has to be a partnership of the talent and the venue. If they won't promote the show, you should not be expected to make a continual out-of-pocket expense to do so. (Promoting online is free!)
- To get respect, you have to demand respect.

If I can't get at least $40-$50 PER HOUR, a karaoke gig is not worth my time. However, I'm not in imminent danger of being evicted, car being repossessed, etc. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

I don't see anything wrong with calling on venues which already have karaoke. "Hi, Mr. Bar Owner. I'm Dan McKay from Dangerous Karaoke and just wanted to stop by and introduce myself. I'm sure you're happy with your present host, but if things should change, please keep us in mind." Then hand him an information package on your services, give him a firm handshake, turn and leave.

If he's interested in talking with you, he'll holler, "Hey Dan...wait a sec..." and ask a question or engage YOU in conversation. In my book, that's a bar owner expressing interest - not stealing a gig.

Good luck!

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[font=Lucida Console]DangerousKaraoke.com[/font]
[font=Lucida Console]"Sing for the day, sing for the moment, sing for the time of your life!"[/font]

It seems you only have 2 choices really ---

Sit and take it - work for a venue you #1 don't belive is being honest with you and taking complete advantage of you and your personal situation or

#2 -- DEMAND $150 PER NIGHT MINIMUM OR QUIT ON THE SPOT


WAIT A MINUTE ..you only have one decision to make (#2)

I personally would have sat tight in this situation... the owner has a rep for bein unfair... this isn't likely to change.

My main questions would be...

Can i afford to let this gig go??? A little of something is better than a lot of nothing.

If I can't afford to lose the money (assuming I make some money after costs), instead of running the risk of losing all of my income, could I add extra's to my show? Maybe sell glow sticks on the side, make my tip pot more prominant, charge people for writing out their slips for them

In the meantime if I was still unhappy, I would look for another gig to replace this one. If I did choose to leave, I would do so on a good note, who knows they may ask me to come back (pride is a strange thing so I wouldn't count on it).

I had problems in one venue for a year, not with the owner, but the patrons who were rather unruly. Eventually thanks to advice from this forum and sheer stubborness I managed to control them and now I have more customers whom will visit other shows and bring in more money for more people, making my following and reputation all the better.

People who work for the bar tab, don't tend to last, either due to unprofessionalism (getting too drunk and unable to complete the tasks asked of them) or other commitments (eg employment where they do get paid... one cannot live on beer alone). And in my experience in a bar on a Monday night, karaoke will bring in more people than a DJ, frustratingly for you it looks like the owners will learn this the hard way.

Most important thing in this situatation is to not let it get you down. You have invested a lot to provide a professional show and have actively stated that you are continually learning and improving. That is a sign of a good host! Get e-mails/Numbers of all your regulars and friends and keep them informed on what you are up to.

Yeah, first off it seems like you have a income problem that is keeping you from enforcing the verbal agreement you have with the bar owner. You need the money. So fix that first. Sign up to help with the US Census. They are paying $13.00 an hour here in my area, and will give you 40 hours a week if you want.

OK, #2. The verbal agreement is 15% of the bottom line, with a min of $75 and a max of $200.00. Any businessman worth a darn should be willing to show you the z-tape at the end of the night, and calculate the 15% with you. I would ask for that courtesy. If they will not do that, and will nto pay you based on your agreement, then you only have two choices - shut up and take it, or leave.

That's what you are dealing with. Seriously, work on your income problem FIRST AND FOREMOST, even if you have to go work part time at a retail store or something. You most pressing issue is that you can't afford to walk away from any of your gigs, so if they take advantage of you, you just have to take it. Once that is not your situation, I guarantee you'll be able to make a more logical decision on what to do, and you'll end up in a better situation either way.

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C Mc
KJ, FL

Census job is a good idea for a short time - which will allow you time to go and investigate other places. I would not continue in the place with the flaky owner. If he is dishonest, which it appears he is, I would say in the area of ethics he is lacking all the way around.

Create a very attractive promotion kit - if you aren't graphically inclined, find someone who is - maybe even trade a private show for assistance with that - photos, testimonials, etc., etc. Set yourself above rest -- if you appear as professional and of a higher caliber than most in the area, and have facts to back up your claims (number of singers, etc.), your chances of finding a better paying gig are increased.

I understand the financial situation, and I think most of us understand it better in these current times, but avoid the temptation to give it away out of desperation. Flaky owners smell desperation.

I am graphically inclined, and am currently gathering testimonials to put together a full color brochure. I have already sent out packets to every bar in a 40 mile radius, and only booked one night as a direct response. Now it is time to follow up with other bars. I'm also looking for a part time job and going to sign up for the census job. It should also be noted that Bu August I'll be moving to North Carolina anyways, to finish my graphic design degree and move to warmer weather and a better economy.

So, considering those circumstances, if it is only going to be another 4-5 months, maybe I should just suck it up on the pay, IDK. We will see. What would be perfect is to find another bar that wants Sunday karaoke then drop this one like a bad habit!

OK, I am a bit confused....
Your profiting $60 for 4 hours work? Or lets say 6 hrs with set-up/tear-down/drive time. That's still $10/hr. How much you gonna make at a part time job.

Yeah, you r getting ripped off only making $75. Just make sure the registers are z-ed out when you start, and have em z themout when you are done and ask to see the tapes.

Heck...Put out a tip jar too!!!

Point being, I'd rather work a minimum wage job and get paid what it is worth than to continue taking the abuse of half the pay of what I deserve doing that show. It's principle of it, not the hours worked based on the pay.

By you not making your stand and telling them pay within two weeks or I am gone, well they know they got two more weeks of decent karaoke before they have to find someone that will work under those conditions - which they will, probably in a heartbeat. You've already built up the crowd, some will stay because of the bar itself, but many will leave. They will see the cut in revenue & either reconsider your offer or drop karaoke entirely because "it just didn't work there" - have seen this happen too many times. But it's going to be ultimately your decision on when you decide enoughs enough!

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