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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 10:45 am 
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Why do so many KJ's seem to have trouble running a decent rotation?

Maybe I'm just spoiled, because the first karaoke bar that I frequented had a pretty fair rotation - the same order of singers each time, new singers added to the end of the rotation, duets were done on the turn of whoever was listed first on the slip. I just always assumed that this was the norm. But boy was I wrong.

There are some places where if there is a rotation strategy in place, I'll be damned if I can figure it out. It seems like the KJ just piles up the song slips and puts people up in the order the slips were received. Shouldn't the rotation be based on the last time the person sang?

Me and a friend went to a popular karaoke place last week. This place was actually one of the venue winners in the karaokefest contest this year. I was there for 2 1/2 hours and got to do one song. There were several people who had initally sang after me, yet got to do their second song before I did (I turned in my second song slip within 5 minutes of completing my first song).

Another night at the same place we showed up late, about 12:30, put a song in right away. The place was crowded and after an hour we still hadn't sang so we just left. Yet during that hour both KJ's sang a song. When there's that long of a wait, why on earth is the KJ doing a song?

Needless to say, I think I'm done with this place. When I go out for karaoke I want it to be fun, yet I always just seem to end up annoyed there. I don't want to have to be the rotation police and (@$%&#!) to the KJ or the owner, I just want to do the occasional song and not watch the same people sing multiple songs before I've had a chance to even do my second one. Is that really too much to ask for? And this place isn't the only one that I've been to with bad rotations, it's just one of the worst offenders.

And if anyone is wondering, I seriously doubt that it's being done deliberately to keep me off the stage. I'm always very nice to the KJ's - never any attitude; I sing pretty well - I get my fair share of unsolicited compliments by other patrons; and I do a wide varitey of songs - they're not keeping me off because they've heard my song a zillion times

Why don't more KJ's realize that regular karaoke singers DO pay attention to the rotation and know when they're being screwed?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:21 am 
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Well there is no right or wrong way to run a rotation. Just one that works for the particular club.
Some kj's will keep the order the same regardless of how many people putting new singers at the end - regardless of how many new singers. This way may seem like a good idea, but the problem I see is say you have a 1 hour rotation & the kj is 3 or 4 songs before starting over. Now 5 new singers come in, they get put to the end, so now you have more songs to wait, a couple more songs go by & 6 more new singers walk in, now you have a further wait. This could continue....
Some kj's will take slips 1 at a time & put them in a stack so when you sing, you hand in a new slip & it goes to the bottom of the pile. Ok, but you as a singer have NO clue as to when you are up, depending on how many singers put up (or don't put up) songs, you could have a 10 minute wait or an hour wait or longer.
Some use the rollercoaster line analogy, once you sing, you get back in line (kind of similar to the pile method).
I've seen kj's that will re-arrange the slips like a dj to keep fast beat songs together, country groups, rock, etc.....this is probably the most unfair method as far as a singers point of view.
My preference is to get a base rotation with a first come first serve. Will usually cut the first round at either 15 or 20 (depending on the size of the crowd) then any new singers get intermixed between the old usually 1 old, 1 new. If I get several new singers I may slip 2 new singers in to 1 old. This way works for my shows & generally don't get many complaints. Everyone knows they will get to sing at least 1 song & the ones that are there from the beginning will generally average 3 songs if they are there to the end. I quite taking all slips between 12 - 12:30 & will USUALLY have it timed to be able to get through the rest of the rotation without having to cut anyone (although sometimes it is inevitable to have to cut someone), but if I do I will tell them I can't make any promises & I would try, but that's about it.
I had one night that if I did the new singers at the end rule, NONE of the singers that were there from the start would've been able to get up again, by mixing the new with the old, all the old singers got at least 1 more chance.
I also had a rotation program designed so that people can SEE exactly what the rotation is, on one screen it displays 23 singers at any given time, when they are next, what time they sang last, approx wait time until their next song based on 4.5 minutes average, when new people were inserted & where in the rotation. It will also list what song everyone are singing, but I generally just keep the name list for the most part.

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Last edited by Lonman on Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:44 am 
Over here we don't have a rotation, we just insist that the performers hand in one slip at a time. It works for us because the performers come and go throughout the night. When it gets busy it ends up looking like a rotation because everyone is sure to get their slip in right after they sing, but for the most part they can just relax and hand in a slip when they want, knowing that once its in, they won't hear someone else do two songs before they get up.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:50 am 
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From what I've been able to gather, Lonman runs his show in a huge venue, and I'm guessing shows like his are the exception rather than the rule around here.

At my shows, rotations run between 15-20 singers.

I have had an epiphany, and it involves a white erasable board on an easel. As the song slips come in, I put the singers' names on the board, and that is the order they sing in all night long. If they have a song in on time they sing that time around, if not they sit out and catch the next rotation. New arrivals go on the bottom. How soon the new singers get up to sing depends purely on chance. If we are at the top of the order, it will be a while. If we are near the bottom they will get up fairly quickly. I use a JVC triple tray, and always have the next two songs loaded and ready to go. If they turn in a song after I have loaded the top of the rotation, they gotta wait til the end of that rotation.

At the top of the board I write, "To figure out your wait time, we average 5 minutes per song." That way they can count from the person who is singing to themselves and see how long they have to wait, thus eliminating the most annoying question we have to answer, "How long til I'm up?"

With the whiteboard, there is no fuzziness at all, it's all right there in black and white for everyone to see. It's made my job SO much easier!

ALL BOW BEFORE THE MIGHTY WHITEBOARD!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:51 pm 
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Re Invention

Margie and I ran our shows exactly as the first show that you went to. This system has worked for us for many years. We have had very few complaints. Our regular singers know our system and what to expect. Our rotation would run 30-35 singers. Earlier this year we tracked (recorded) 130+ singers over a 2 month period. Of course most are casual customers that patronise different bars. The key to keep them coming back is customer service and engineering a good sound system.

Many KJ's make the mistake of catering to their regulars. That is good for the regulars and bad for bringing in new customers such as yourself. You have a right to expect to be treated fairly.

I have a lot of respect for Lonman and Big Mike and as you can see, we all have our own way of doing a show. The bottom line is making money for both you and the bar. Repeat customers are the key. I wold note that in our case about 1/2 of the patrons at the bar sing, the rest come for the entertainment.

Since you are located in the L.A. area, I would recomend that you check out KAROKEKATHY's website. Look for her on the Singers Showcase and follow the link. She has reviewed many karaoke bars in the L.A. area.

I hope that you have found this helpful.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 6:46 pm 
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I manage my rotations pretty much as described by Lonman. It's fair and consistent, singers know what to expect and often comment favorably about it (and that I don't include myself in it!). I don't have a display and am often asked "how long" it will be - that can be a tough question to answer accurately when we're packed.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 6:50 pm 
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mcentertainment wrote:


Since you are located in the L.A. area, I would recomend that you check out KAROKEKATHY's website. Look for her on the Singers Showcase and follow the link. She has reviewed many karaoke bars in the L.A. area.


Thanks for the tip. I just checked out her website and I'm pretty sure I've seen her on a couple of Tuesday nights in Arcadia. She's a pretty woman, very smiley, has a great voice, and does a nice variety of songs. Most of the places she reviewed are too far away from me to go to, but she does a great job in reviewing them.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 10:21 pm 
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no rotations are NOT hard.

Use the K.I.S.S. method. "Keep it SIMPLE... STUPID!" LOL!

First in, first out, once the rotation is built, put new singers at the end.

I for one, reward singers that have been at the gig all night by keeping their spot in the rotation! If you come in later, to the end of the line you go.

I keep my rotation the way you would a line at the bank. No cuttin', and no favors!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:03 am 
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Rotations in their simplest form ..No problems .."sing one bring one"
Everyone keeps their line in rotation and all can see on a white erasable board I have . New singers get to the bottom of the line if the rotation is not that large 8-10 singers . Over that and I TRY to slip them in between singers. Its the duets and groups that seem to drive me to drink an extra beer or two ... I usually count group songs a turn for one of the singers (if there are 3 in the group I will allow that group 3 songs in 1 rotation ) Not one after another but in the same rotataion. Duets same concept.
Its the singers that expect to sing MORE that drive me crazy they want to sing in a group and then in a duet and then by themselves.... :shock: :shock: Oh by the way I have to leave so can I get right up? :D :D


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:32 am 
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Oh, the best ones are the ones that get up to sing, and then invite the two people that sang the last two songs to come help them. Nothing better than someone in the back looking up and seeing the same singer that was just up there 5 minutes ago.

I have a group of regulars that used to do this constantly. Once it was established that they were going to be causing this dilemna every week, I explained to them how that messes up my rotation. I told them they were welcome to continue doing it, but I couldn't guarantee that they wouldn't get left out of the next rotation, so I could be fair to everyone.

As far as the "I have to go, can I sing?", I do occasionally let a regular sing if they're not too far away anyway, if it's a slow night, it's not their only song, and I know they're not running off to a different show. It usually depends on marital status and breast size. (Kidding, sort of :wink: )


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:12 pm 
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one thing I told some people the night before... when they did that "hey, help me out with this song" bit:

if you sing a duet with this person, you will get passed over in the rotation NEXT rotation...

AMAZING how fast the mic got handed back to me!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:22 pm 
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Jama--how do you "Slip one in" if you have a whiteboard listing singers? If I'm at your show and my name follows Bill all night and all of the sudden Judy "slips" in ahead of me, we're gonna have a talk! I've been at the show since it started, let Judy wait until the end of the line like I did when I came in.

Duets and groups ARE the worst though, I agree. I count a duet/group song as a turn for each of the singers involved, and this does piss some people off I will admit.

As far as people coming up to sing, I just point to my rule page which says that if your name isn't on the slip, you ain't singing! At least not with a live mic! That way I avoid all "helpers" wanted or unwanted.

I love the "Can you bump me up, I have to go" folks. I don't remember what movie I saw it in, but I use the line all the time. I point to the whiteboard with the rotation, and tell them that they can skip ahead in line if they get a note from everyone waiting patiently ahead of them saying that it's ok.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:34 pm 
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Mike & Matt,
I get where you are coming from.. and ya know that would save alot of headaches in large rotations.. MAN would it!!! 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:39 pm 
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Big MIke ..I can slip one in cause I leave a space between names ..JUST FOR THAT RESON ... :wink: :wink: . I use the rotation board so the singers can get an idea when they are up and who they are up after etc.
After each rotation it changes based on new singers ..singers who left for the night etc.....


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:41 pm 
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Now Jam :x :twisted:

Really... Is that a fair rotation??? :?: :shock: :shock: :?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:06 pm 
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I won't frequent a place that doesn't have a civilized rotation. I think if singers come in later they have to wait their turn like everyone else. If you want to sing more.. or at all.. get to the show early. If
you are not willing to support the show and the other singers I don't want you at my show. Believe me everyone knows where they are in the rotation and if you deviate from it you get more headache than you can handle.


I hate when you have a large group and they have all had their turn in rotation then they start slipping in phony names. If I call them up and they have used their turn I tell them to step off the stage and wait until their name comes up. It really embarrasses them.

What makes some people think they have the right to hog the stage anyway???

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:27 pm 
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Mike
I think you misunderstand ..I never JUMP singers in the rotation but when new singers come along I do "slip" them in the next time around 1 new singer to 2 old singers :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:51 pm 
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As long as what you do is consistant, it doesn't matter. We find we can finish the rotation by the end of the show 95% of the time.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:09 pm 
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Maybe I am misunderstanding jama. Are you saying that your rotation changes every time you start it?

For example, at my show, the rotation would be:

singer 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9

If two new singers come in (10 & 11) my board would show

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11.

From what I am getting from you, your first rotation would be

singer 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9--same as mine

but the second would be

singer 1, 2, 10, 3, 4, 11, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9?



As for finishing rotations at the end of the night, I just play for as long as time allows. I usually pull the books in when I have enough slips to close out the show. I really don't worry if I end with singer 11 or singer 2.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:21 pm 
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Re Invention I have run my shows in the way you printed. It is not as important as to the method of rotation as it is to be consistent and keep a perception of fairness. I have a heavy load of singers normally, with 35 plus or minus singers (rarely minus).

I have had to cap rotations after a 2 hour wait at anyplace from 27 to 35 singers, and take names to add to the next or last round. Their wait will not be as long since some people drop out, everyone waits. Many times these people have come from another place while those who waited are rewarded with their next song.

It is NOT unusual to get only 2 maybe 3 rounds in a 4 hour show at 4 minutes per singer to change over. I have to close taking new names usually by an hour to an hour and a half before time for the show to end to take care of all those customers who have stayed waiting to sing their song and patronized my venue.

I always try to be very up front with singers, and have it on a displayed dry erase board at all times. I will write clearly on the board and announce new singers will sing on the next round if I must cap that rotation or NO NEW NAMES if I have more than enough singers to finish out the evening.

Everyone on the dry erase board WILL sing their song as long as they stay and DO NOT LEAVE at any time. If a singer leaves they get the magic finger. I have a lot of karaoke all around me so people have to have a reason to stay to sing, and there are other good reasons. The wait and fairness are only part of that.

There are other rules as I must do what it takes to keep things fair in a busy show. My shows have been karaoke ONLY for into my 8th year now, thanks be to all those people who come in because I do run a fair show, and they tell me so. I have no problem with the shows that DO not run a fair show.

There is no wrong or right way to run a show. The above is just how I operate.

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