Karaoke Forums

He in lies the problem. I run a great show (those are the words I hear from customers and other reliable KJs I know) BUT I am gettin' my a#$ kicked by the lowball ($100s a nite) kjs around town. For all the years in the business I have strived to create a better show and better sound then the competition (we all know all kjs are not created equal) with the hopes and aspirations of gaining more money (you know the saying "you get what you pay for") per gig by buying better and expensive (quality) equipment and spenting $$$$$$$$s for music (still disc based)
I wish I could claim that I was getting $200 or more per nite in this market but when you have $100s a nite kjs as copetition it is nearly impossible.

Now the big question,

Should I compromise my own integrity and "bottom feed" to gain new shows?
I am so over hearing "your probably worth that $$$$ but I can get (fill in the blank) and he/she only charges me $xxx. (Sometimes even piracy doesn't play into this equation so let not get off on a piracy rant since most know my position on that issue already)

I know I have missed business due to price but I believe have finally reached my breaking point.



All comments welcome Please!

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No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

My take: Don't give in. You're better off with a show at $200 than two shows at $100.

Personally I've drawn a hard line in the sand for price on a show. I don't even do the Tuesday nights at my venue because they want to pay less than what I want. They're willing to work a lesser show and let me take the weekends because the numbers are impossible to argue. I work two nights and make more than they pay the other 4 nights together, but the small crowd the venue has on those night makes it worth their while.

My main advantage is I don't use the Karaoke gig to pay the rent. If I did need it I might not be so picky. But I also wonder if I'd get burned and jaded for being underpaid and all shows would suffer.

I can only tell you what I do, I can't give advice to you. There are too many variables. However you have to run with what enables you to make your shows the best they can be. If cutting your rates doesn't compromise quality and nets you more money and satisfaction then do it.

Thanks for the input.

My gigs are not my primary income but I'd sure like them to be.
I am startin to look at "the bird in the hand......" and I strive to work smarter and not harder.

My biggest fear is loosin' my primary gig due to price than what do I have? Zip and a lot of fancy equipment. All my equipment at least is paid for (ir ain't eatin' nothing) so i have that to be thankful for.

I am headin' of to my gig so I won't respond till after midnight.

Thanks again

Hal

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No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

Don't give in. I too had a similar problem in my area. Round about 3 years ago there were 5 other KJs in my direct area and we were all competing against each other. The others kept lowering their prices to "keep the gig". My price stayed the same because we are worth it! Well today, of the 5 only one is still doing gigs, but only 1 every other month.

Recently another competitor/multirigger with a 60K+ library, moved into the area, and lowballed us on the gig we had. Well, lucky enough another bar abut 5 miles away was comping at the bit to get us into his bar for about 6 months, so we are now directly competing every other Saturday with the lowballer/multirigger. Well.....we are winning and the bar we are at now is loving the $$$$$ in the till.


So dont give in, people will come to realize you are worth the extra $$$$, and if the don't realize it beacuse of the extra $$$ int he till, they they are the idiot!!!!!

I simply tell people when they try to low ball me that "Good entertainment ISN'T cheap, and cheap entertainment isn't GOOD!"

Or when they say 'Well So and So will do it for $100.00" You can say "Yeah , So and So and I have an agreement. I won't work as cheaply as them, and they won't bring the quality of their show up to MY level!"

You have a tough decision to make. Personally, if you can hold out long enough to see the "lowballers" lowball themselves out of work, that's what I would do. However, If you need the work, perhaps you can bring your price down just a little, enough to tempt a bar owner, but not enough to lowball the lowballer. If you lowball the lowballer, all you will do is lowball yourself out of pay and you will end up in a situation that others on here complain of - an area where you have to pay to play. Definitely NOT what you want. It's very precipitous ground you're treading on right now. Good luck to you and I hope it woks out for you. Please let us know what you decide to do.

I got to meet Rumbolt about a month ago and spoke with him again this past Tues night at our local ADJA meeting. It was a real pleasure to meet someone else in my market with so much such knowledge and passion for the business. I've had more than one of my singers visit his show and tell me its top notch. Unfortunately,we both work the same night so we havent been to each others gig.

Rumbolt, Could some of your problem be you love your hosting job so much your willing to work for less than your worth? I say don't give in. I know if I can get 2+ on a week night you can too.

I'll give ya call later this week.

Mojo

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"It looks just like a Telefunken U47 !"

Just to play the DA...

It worked for Walmart.

Not that that means anything. A bar isn't going to necessarily listen to that reasoning and still go with their pocket book thinking karaoke is just karaoke.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Ah, but Walmart made it pay for themselves with efficiency. Turns out there were lots of things to learn in inventory management. Unless you can somehow achieve some efficiencies, it probably won't pay.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Hal You have to ask yourself if the $100 per night is all the market will handle?

I'm sure you are a GREAT KJ but if the bar can get a GOOD KJ cheaper for the $100 why would they pay MORE for any KJ ? What do you bring to the table that no other KJ can ..That is important to the venues BOTTOM LINE $$$$$?

So you have 2 choices --- Sit and wait for a venue to pay your asking price. Which you can do if you DON'T NEED TO WORK.

I suggest you take a lower paying gig at a good venue and let the owner know you are DISCOUNTING your rate with the understanding to revisit your fee after a predetermined time frame. ( 3 -6 months?) In that time if you proven your worth and business has improved ($$$$) for the bar you MAY be able to get a bump in your pay. If the venue can not justify any increase in profits then you have a decision to make. Get your foot in the door and see what happens. IT may be able to gradually increase your pay - the sit on the side with no shows to host making ZERO money .

Once you discount your rate you're forever discounted. The only way to ensure you can continue to get paid is to keep turning over good nights for whatever price you are being paid. Business has been up for my venue on the nights I run, up 100% from 6 months ago. I talked to the owner last week about a pay increase and he was quite amenable to it and said he'd have some numbers this week to discuss with me. The bottom line is the bottom line. Make the venue money and they'll happily pay you. When the venue has experience they know they get what they pay for.

Maybe I'm looking at the situation all wrong. Look at the venue's perspective; are their bar receipts worth what they're paying you? If the answer is no, then accept lower pay until the receipts demand they pay you more. If the answer is yes, then don't budge.

Again YMMV.

I think that Jam's points are well-taken as the economy is really affecting the way people do business today and it may call for some creativity. Right now it is a buyer's market in our area and the amount of extra money a better host brings in may not translate to much more of a profit, once the higher fee is paid. At least it has become a hard thing to prove otherwise as standards have gotten pretty low.

The problem is, once you accept the lower fee, it is difficult to get them to come back up. We turned down a $75 job because we no longer want to contribute to the problem of bringing down fees. But low as it was, it would have taken care of 4 of our monthly bills. But I have decided it is war, not just against the P-word but against those who have run down the reputation of karaoke and it may take a while to bring it back up. We contributed to the problem by accepting a low deal to get our foot in the door but we have people in our area doing shows for FREE which is a hard price to beat.

So I think getting together with DJMojo is a really good idea as he understands your market and seems to be doing well. I like the idea of the legit KJs in an area getting together to support each other and brainstorm strategy.

I do a lot of extra things I don't have to do at "my" venue. Contests, cover when bands no-show (this happens to them several times a year), do a free night of "dance music" for a special birthday, whatever.

Also, even though the venue has house PA now, it sucks bad, so I try to bring my own PA in at least once a month on a busy night, and the reason I do that is to remind the owner that the reason we don't hear as many compliments about the sound anymore is that his PA sucks, I am not doing anything different than before he bought it (other than having to baby the subs and the HF and not having enough EQ and ... you know, dealing with the limits compared to my own system.) I never bring lights anymore because I won't put hours on my bulbs and fixtures for the cheap pay, but that's life.

I took a pay cut when they put in house PA but I told him it would only be temporary, as I knew business was down due to the economy, and I suggested he find another KJ for some of my nights. No one would work for my new, reduced rate; so a few months went by and I asked for (and received) more money. I will ask for more again later this year. But I am working way cheaper than I should right now, because they treat me like I'm "on the team," and I took the pay hit because I know everyone else is making less money than in 2008 and 2009 too.

I have seen other venues in town go through KJs lately, both cheap pirate hacks everyone hates, and some good KJs who just charged so much the venues could not justify their rates. I'm not going to go from gig to gig trying to justify $200 a night when I have steady work. The economy sucks and I do not want to rock the boat.

If I was the OP I would do some extra things to make sure the venue owners feel like he cares about their business, selling booze and food. That is my strategy and when they thought I was going to quit instead of take less money, everyone on the bar staff from the cook to the bartenders to the owner's wife freaked out. I am not irreplaceable, no one is, but it would be pretty tough to find someone who cares about them making money, and puts in extra effort to see that they do.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

Whenever I consider a possible new venue, I first try to analyze their existing crowd and how much (if any) improvement they can make in their revenues. Face it, some bars don't have the capacity for that many more people, or the likelihood that a better host will achieve that much of an incremental increase where it would justify the owner taking another $50-$75-$100 off their bottom line to change hosts.

Just do the math. In some cases, even though their gross might be lower, some bars NET more money with a KJ who charges precipitously less.

Even if the numbers could conceivably work for the bar, it's presumptuous for you to expect them to take all the risk based on your claim that your "better show" will result in higher net profits for them.

If you really think it's a win-win, then go to the bar and tell them you'll "prove yourself" by doing 4 weeks for the same price as the other host. At the end of that time they either start paying your new rate or turn you loose. That's STILL a risk for them...what if at the end of 4 weeks you DON'T increase the ring to the point where your increased fee makes sense? They try to get their old host back at the same price?

Put yourself in their shoes first.

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[font=Lucida Console]DangerousKaraoke.com[/font]
[font=Lucida Console]"Sing for the day, sing for the moment, sing for the time of your life!"[/font]

I understand what you're saying, Lon. I should have clarified that I only say those things when all other reasoning with the potential bar has been exhausted. It has sometimes made the bar owner reconsider, sometimes it hasn't. But it does give food for thought, and hopefully they'll eventually see things from a professional's point of view.

getting involved in the overall picture as suggested by Jeff is not a bad thing to do.
You have to know and TRUST your manager and owners. Offering a trial period price - sit down and go over suggestions you might have to increase karaoke business. BUT I think at the end you are still left with what ever the market will pay.

I mean if your area has 20 KJ's and 18 are charging $100 per nite ...its seems to say that's the GOING RATE.

Inventory?

They put the stores that gave that SUPERIOR service out of business by selling crappolla at a lower price, I dont care how they did it... but they did.

Wal-Mart's a multi-rigger!

Here's what I suggest. This is how I pay my KJ's. They get a flat rate of 100 per night. 25ish dollars an hour. Not bad for not providing their own equipment. THEN I set a very reasonable bonus point for bar sales and if the sales exceed that amount I give them 10% of everything we sell over that price. Most bar owners are willing to work like that. My whole problem of paying the hard line 200 or whatever the KJ is asking is it's VERY unflexable and bar sales can vary widely in any givin month. It also provides incentive for the KJ's to fill the bar and work with me to make a sucessfull night bottom line wise.

Just my two cents