Karaoke Forums

I was able to find some information on the various and sundry lawsuits, but nothing about any judgments in Phoenix as of yet...

Here are the various suits you can Google to track the progress...

Slep-Tone Entertainment Corp. et al. v. Gorrell et al., No. CV-09-1462-PHX-MHM (D. Ariz.)
Slep-Tone Entertainment Corp. et al. v. Kay et al., No. 3:09cv418 (W.D.N.C.)
Slep-Tone Entertainment Corp. et al. v. Jimmy's Southern Pub, LLC et al., No. 3:09cv436 (E.D. Tenn.)
Slep-Tone Entertainment Corp. et al. v. Associated Consultants et al., No. 1:09cv1390 (E.D. Va.)
Slep-Tone Entertainment Corp. v. Kara-O-King Inc. et al., No. (TBA) (N.D. Fla.)

I read the information from the Safe Harbor Program from Sound Choice. While legality of what they say must be determined in a court of law, non-compliance would obviously be a crap shoot. I, for one, can't afford to pay court costs or even take the time to go to court. I would think using the term "a cost of doing business" is not very business savvy. Large corporations who have to operate on the fringe of the law to survive hire their own law team to advise them as they go. Can any of us afford to keep a full time lawyer on retainer just to protect us from a visit from Sound Choice? I would think not!

It sounds simple enough to say you are a legal KJ. But it may be tougher to prove with all the questions that go unanswered on this forum. It might be a whole lot easier to make the decision to make sure your house is in order and sign up for the program. Once you do that, you still have to keep your nose clean, but a venue that signs up won't hire you if you don't comply. The choice is obvious. You can choose not to buy or play SC tracks at your shows.

I did notice that they have registration set up for venues but host registration is still pending. I wonder if anyone here has investigated the comment by SC that they will offer discounts to those who volunteer to get in compliance. I've heard the $6700 figure after the fact. What would it cost if you sign up and volunteer to buy the complete set?

Also, you may note that, in order to find out what information or questions are on their 2 page form, you have to register. In order to register, you have to give them personal information that they can use even if you don't complete the registration.

The comment about Chartbusters is looking for snitches brings up another question. Would it not be better (not cheaper) to sign up with KIAA and cover all manufacturers at once. I would agree that signing a statement of compliance might be in the legal KJ's favor should some jerk decide to play a prank on the website.

I would think that the KJ who claims to run a legal show would be all for having a "get out of jail free" card.

As a legit kj (I have all my discs) if I were to get named in a suit, my first action would be to call my lawyer (ok so I have to pay a small fee to him) and have him set a meeting to clear my operation of any wrongdoing and it would all end. No fee paid to Sound Choice, case closed. Everyone should be satisifed. So I had to spend some of my time to protect my business but how hard it that really. No RICO, no payola, no extortation, and no $6500 (or whatever it is). And I am left alone to do what I do, run my shows.

Am I still missing something here?

If a kj host is operating in the "gray area" of the law then that is the risk they take and if they were a good business person (and if we do it right we should be prepared for the unexpected), it is their responsiblity to know what the laws are and abide by them. We may not agree but the we should operate within the law.

I have been reading a lot of comments on OUR forum and there seems to be a lot of disagreement as to how the anti-piracy litigations have proceeded and their "tatics"
of getting to where they are in their outcomes. There is a lot of "they're just out to get me" but if you take a moment to step back and ask yourself one question, Am I operating my KJ/DJ business like a "brick and morter store" would run their place of business or am I operating as if I were in a back alley trying to skirt the rules and regulations. Would I buy my product from me?

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No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

Rum, BINGO.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Let me ask you this since you run your business like a "brick and mortar store:"

Would you purchase your tracks from some company in a back alley trying to skirt the rules and regulations?

You need to decide for yourself why SC is suing on trademark and not copyright as well.

You need to decide why SC is trying to look like "the good guy" by mentioning "unfair competition" in their suits when in fact, they do NOT compete with KJ's and KJ's do not make/sell karaoke tracks -- there is no competition. They are also not some "self-appointed guardian of industry" that has any right or business inserting themselves squarely between KJ's.





Why would you be named in a suit? Do you run by computer? Do you have "too many tracks?" Do you use books?

Seriously Rumbolt, The only criteria that SC uses apparently, is that you are running a computer or a cavs unit.... or even discs... (just ask McLeod's).

Now, wake up and smell the roses.... you would not be able to "clear your operation of any wrongdoing" without signing an agreement with SC.... have you read the agreement? It's ridiculously one-sided. And no, you are NOT "left alone to do what you do."

Anyone who would agree to it is in need of severe help. If your attorney would suggest you sign it, then your attorney would be an idiot. Read the agreement... it IS the most racket-smelling paper I've ever seen.

Believe me, I understand your desire to remove pirates from your area and I can appreciate your passion for the subject but I also believe that you are so wrapped up in "waving the SC flag for the cause" that you are rationalizing their tactics (and that is exactly what they are, "tactics").

If you want to find out what's really going on, why not ask SC why they put out tracks that are "not for commercial use." Could it be that they are simply not "licensed" either for commercial use or not licensed at all? Are they "selling in back alley just to skirt the rules?"

We hear a lot about the Pheonix lawsuits, but we don't hear squat from the KIAA on ANY of this do we? Doesn't that fact alone tell you something?

I'd suggest Rumbolt, if you REALLY want to avoid even the "small fee" to your attorney, why don't you just sign up with the KIAA now? Go ahead, blindly sign their "agreement", send in your $50 bucks and be done with it....

You nailed it- sounds like extortion in my opinion as well. However, I don't believe they will ever see a dime- "Default" rulings are among the easiest to overturn.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Just a reminder: Safe Harbor and POOP programs are merely compliance programs for those orgs, and have nothing to do with legality, only paying off protection money to 2 of possibly several folks not to bother you. Also, I have yet to here of any DOCUMENTED agreement not to come back and do it again. The whole thing is pretty much worthless. After those two, how about Stellar, then Pocket, and then..and then....etc...

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Exactly, any company that doesn't have anything to hide in the first place shouldn't have anything to worry about! It seems to me the ones that do not actually have any discs to back their drives up are the ones bitchin. I know of a couple companies locally that would claim the same thing if they were named since they completely believe they have the right to buy any hard drive loaded with songs & claim them as legal.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Anybody being quized at their shows yet? Haven't heard of any out Cali way... yet.

Mark

Really?

Well I have the discs to support my HD and I still am bitchin. I am bitchin about:
(1) false accusations that have been made by SC
(2) the one-sided agreement that SC wants people to sign to settle with them
(3) the time it would take if I were to allow my system to be audited; which I wouldn't allow
(4) the fact that the SC audit does not involve any manufacturers other than SC
(5) the KJ's who support and defend SC based upon the false belief that SC's effort will curtail piracy
(6) the fact that pirates have eliminated ONLY SC from the HD's and are still in business with other pirated tracks
(7) the fact the some venues have become leery about presenting karaoke after they have learned of the trials and tribulations some venues are going through because of SC actions
(8) the fact that those who recognize the ramifications to "kowtowing" to SC and are critical of them, are faulted by some as having something to hide!
(9) the fact that some KJ's can't see beyond the nose on their face as to the potential downside of cooperating with SC on their terms after SC has smeared your business and therefore has further motivation to prove you guilty. And to do so, they are the accuser, judge and jury
(10) the fact that most people can't comprehend the true nature and technical issues associated with SC's federal IP suit based upon trademark infringement

So... there are most, but not all, of my bitches.. And there is absolutely nothing that I worry about regarding my library!

Now, Lonman, are you really sure that you want to state that those who are critical of SC lack physical discs?

I would bet that the majority do not own a single disc - I have watched kj's around here that used to be disc base, buy a hard drive & sold their discs. For those that do have their discs, where are any links or facts that show that they had to pay up when they owned every disc to back up their hard drive. Hell for that matter, we haven't seen anything from the original poster regarding the supposed $200K judgement.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

First, I am not necessarily "waving the SC flag". I have never taken that position but I support anyone that is in the fight. You and I might not agree as to the way they are handling the actions to get the results they desire, the primary question, Is it ok for a kj to use copies of music they have not paid for? Simple enough!

Second, I would never buy from the back alley jerk.

Third, I doubt I will ever be named in a piracy suit, but if I were I am not really worried as I said before. If I do it will be show and tell time. I do use books I update every 4 - 5 months (I put and update page in the front everytime I add songs)

Fourth, Why would SC ask me to sign anything, I am completly legal (as I stated before)?

Fifth, McLeod's, I do not know the outcome. I will not perpetuate rumors. That is between them, their lawyers and SC.

Sixth, Have you considered calling directly to SC and find out what their intent is?

What i don't understand is why do you seem to not want the manus to "eliminate" their competition (the kjs that make copies and/or create hardrives that they sell CHEAP ( pirates are the competition)

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No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

I did find this update re: McLeod's...

Updated: 11/20/2009 2:12:37 PM

http://www.wbir.com/news/national/story.aspx?storyid=105330&catid=2

"Follow Up: Karaoke pirates? Knox bar named in lawsuit says "no way"

Late Thursday afternoon, an attorney for Sound Choice Studios confirmed to 10News they plan to drop their lawsuit against Macleod's. He said an investigator working for Sound Choice entered Macleod's and mistakenly thought a CAVS System, used to play general music in the bar, was being used for karaoke..."

At least in this case Sound Choice DID screw up. They SHOULD be more careful. Does that make their actions totally without merit in all cases? Not in my book.

SC wouldn't be the first company to launch a lawsuit in error. Just as police will charge a person with a crime and furher investigation reveals the person arrested was innocent. When SC discovered the error, they did the right thing and dropped it. They didn't hide or made excuses.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Well, we definitely don't agree on their tactics I'll grant you that much. But you seem to ignore the fact that SC has not (to date) named a SINGLE hard drive seller (their "competition" if you will) in any of their suits. However, it seems that although the best way to combat the problem is to stop it at the source (the HD sellers), SC has no desire in doing so and it doesn't seem a priority with them.

What's up with that? Why are they leaving the hard drive sellers alone and going after the KJ's? IMHO: it's because the HD sellers are creating their new customer base.




Not if you recognized the seller as one. If you believe all the tracks you have are legally produced (yes, and this includes SC tracks), then you've been snowed. If you take the position that "I just bought it at a store and that's not my responsibility" is the easiest way justify manufacturer's previous piracy (or "back alley") actions. I'll bet if you check with the publishers of some of the newest songs that are being put out by the current manufacturers, you'll find that they are not licensed either.




Mistakes do happen.... besides, what if they just want to "sweep" all the KJ's in any area? You'll be called in.... to prove what you shouldn't have to.... just because they "want you to." So it will cost you some time/money when it shouldn't? You might be willing to jump through hoops "just because they want you to", but I'm not.




They would want you to "join the fight" and sign up with KIAA.... if you've taken the time to read that agreement, you'll find that they can search you anytime they want. And there are NO (none, zip, zilch, nada) checks and balances to make sure that the manufacturers are legal and not selling out of the back alley, and no penalties, fines or anything for them... it's all AGAINST THE KJ.



Too late.... how badly would your business be hurt by the media splashing your face and name around on the tube accusing you of being a pirate.... did you ever hear of any type of apology from SC? Nope...



Have you? They have stated their intent and their actions speak volumes.



Do YOU "compete' with SC? Do you "create and/or sell" karaoke tracks? No you don't... It's the pirates that SELL HARD DRIVES that are "competing" with SC. But bor some strange reason --still unknown-- SC has not YET named a single hard drive seller in their lawsuit(s). NOT ONE!

My question is simple: Why not?

Still waiting for a link or anything else that would make this thread worth a darn

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

I'm working on it Joe... Hopefully, I'll have something (real) in a couple days.

Glad i'm not the only one that thinks this way.
And being they supposedly dropped the charges against the McLeouds bar most likely due to they had their discs - although would still like to see something to show that, maked me more confident that I will have no troubles being I own bought every single disc in my computer. Not a single download or anything else.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

There are actually several different issues that have caused some people to become angry with and critical of SC.

Directly addressing your thoughts is the reality for some of us that SC IS NOT FIGHTING PIRACY and they have already acknowledged that FACT publicly. SC's goal is to bring in as much money as they can FOR THEMSELVES and that is an effort that should be applauded by their stockholders and employees. I have no connection to SC as either, so I have no reason to automatically jump on the SC "bandwagon"!

To begin with, in order to accomplish their goal(s) SC NEEDS to KEEP the ACCUSED pirates in business:
(1) doing so provides the pirates with a cash flow that will facilitate the honoring of their settlement agreements with SC
(2) doing so helps SC retain customers if the day comes that SC gets their act together and once again creates karaoke products.

And the SC settlement agreement requires the pirates to purchase a specific package of SC discs at prices that are discounted from what HONEST KJ's paid for the very same discs. So, as you can see, SC is creating goodwill among pirates in several ways and at the same time, IMHO, what they are doing is REWARDING THIEVERY.

I say they are rewarding thievery because if SC's assertion(s) for their lawsuit is sustainable, the pirates would pay a lot more for their libraries after SC received a judgment against them as compared to what SC is asking of the pirates to settle! Meanwhile, SC's tactics in no way REWARDS HONEST KJ'S who have actually purchased their SC libraries and kept the company going up until the pirates OVERWHELMED the market! And it is a fact, that SC has erroneously accused some honest operators. What a reward for keeping honest!

And if SC accuses you, they are not going to accept a casual "look see" at your library, they are geared up to and will DEMAND that you submit to their audit and sign their agreement. If you do not comply SC asserts that they will take you to court.

Oh, and BEFORE they ever approach you to discuss their suspicions, ascertain the facts and/or to look at your library, they have already filed a suit against you!

Meanwhile, the pirates they settle with get to stay in business, keep every pirated track on their HD's OTHER, than any pirated SC tracks, and continue to compete against you!

Rumboldt, I hope that helps you to understand why there is more than one viewpoint of what SC is doing?

1) Yes, SC wants to make money for themselves. It would be stupid not to.

2) The discounts one would get are, I believe, the same as you or I would get for buying in bulk.

3) Rewarding theivery? Well, I personally have met with KJ's that are totally ignorant of the fact that copying discs is illegal, or downloading them from a share site. Throwing the book at them with the full force of the law and the upper limits of the compensation might not be wise for SC. Would they get the money? Probably not. This way they get some of the money owed to them (don't forget they have to pay for lawyers and maybe court cost too) and build a relationship, hopefully at the the same time.

Do you think we that already bought our discs should be rewarded because we are honest? Or maybe just that the pirates should pay more because they didn't? I will guess the latter. SC's "tactics" have nothing do do with the honest people. I'm a bit upset that I didn't get paid to go to school like some states are trying. I mighta showed up for a few classes! (Okay, I still would not have gone).

4) If SC accused me, I would have no problem proving my innocence, but then again I am disc based and have no burns.

5) SC has reported hard drive sellers to the authorities. Apparantly, not a big priority for them.

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Kevin