Karaoke Forums

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_NpxTWbovE this is why one should not twiddle the knobs. Watch K d Lang's mic work. She plays it like a guitar.

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Okay, who took my pants?

Are you really this dumb or just play it on a forum? How can you compare a seasoned professional singer, with what looks like a $300 AKG condensor mic with some really good compressors working (notice that when she powers up, the levels stay the same - but when she really belts out that is when she actually pulls the mic), and if you listen really close, you can hear effect changes in the chorus and on certain lines...subtle but they are there (an engineer knob twiddling), HOW can you compare that to a novice karaoke singer? I have been to shows with hosts that know what they are doing that CAN make a novice singer that doesn't pull their mic at all...keeps it pressed to their lips, sound very good because they can adjust the board as they power up.
MAN I would seriously HATE to go to one of your shows because you simply do not care about the singers sound quality. Hopefully you are not in this area, and if you are, please list for the avoidence factor!

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

I would have to have her kicked out of the bar where I do gigs.


No shoes!!!

I have a few regulars that mimic the mic technique they see on American Idol and other live performances and it makes them sound HORRIBLE and there is nothing I can do.

I have had DOZENS of conversations with them about WHY the artists do that, and there is no reason for them to copy it because #1, I am actively adjusting their vocal channel to keep it consistent, and #2, they just do not and will never have the depth and power to their voice that necessitates this technique. The real issue isn't that most singers don't know WHY this technique is used, they just mimic the motions. If they understood the actual dynamics of the technique, they wouldn't do it because it probably wouldn't benefit them.

BUT, they continue to do it, just because they think it is "professional" mic technique. These are not bad singers, they are actually pretty good, but they certainly sound bad due to their absolutely ridiculous mic technique. They look like they have a violent twitch in their wrist that they can't control, and come off as average singers that think they are friggin Celene Dion.

So I will tell you first hand - if you take your average karaoke singer and have them practice the kind of mic technique used by professional singers, MOST of them are going to sound HORRIBLE, cutting in and out of the sound field, and looking ridiculous as they do it.

Oh, and they are going to blame YOU as the karaoke host for the way they sound, no matter how much you try to tell them it is their ridiculous overkill of mic technique.

The plain fact is that 95% of karaoke singers - good singers all the way down to the worst singers - are going to sound their personal best if they sing at a comfortable volume with the mic two inches or less from their mouth and on-axis to the pickup pattern with the grill fully exposed and the KJ adjusting for increases in volume and depth (bass on vocals cut for lower voices and boosted for higher voices).

In a real-life application, that is the best way to run karaoke vocals for 95% of singers - and BELIEVE ME, when the 5% that actually understands advanced mic technique starts singing, YOU'LL KNOW IT!!

Twiddle On KJs!!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

If I had a dollar for every singer who holds the mic a foot & a half away, then looks at me because they don't hear themselves...only to have me yell "Hold it close to your mouth!" I would be a rich man.

Yeah to the OP, all I can say is you're just dead wrong. Fact of the matter is in the day and age of good compressors there is no reason for that type of mic technique and in fact I tell the lead singers in the bands I mix for to not bother doing that. A good sound check to get the proper peak level and proper compression will ensure that peaks do not clip and that quiet passages are still heard. And to be fair, it doesn't take "twidling" to make that happen, just good preparation.

Now in the Karaoke world, you don't get that type of opportunity for preparation but you still should be setting your levels when the singer gets going. Also, most of the adjustments I'm making while a singer is singing are on the EQ and effects. I generally can have the levels dialed in pretty quickly and with compression have no worries about anything getting out of hand. It's more a matter of taking out the annoying dominant frequencies and harmonics on the EQ and getting the EFX correct in the right places in the song. If mixing were a set it and forget it activity, they wouldn't pay audio engineers to sit at the console for an entire show.

** On a side note, anyone else notice the pitch corrector kicking in a number of times during that performance?

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

That's what I need.. A pitch corrector..

Never have I seen someone taken so wrong.
Can't you spot sarcasm...
It was really a bit too obvious.
I know weedy better than that.

You would be surprised at the number of pro/semi pro musicians that do not rely on compressors.

The simple fact is that a compressor moderates the loudest peaks to more modest ranges, compressing the range.

For a singer singing regularly pushing their voice to those loudest peaks and only having the extra effort reduced electronically is a lot of pain on the vocal system with little extra benefit.

For a pro singer performing 5-6 nights a week for hour or longer sets, for months on end (when on tour), either the voice will give out or the singer learns to moderate that extra loud effort (can do the most damage to the voice). Now most musicians are no longer on the "full time" tour mode, but most major ones have gone through such periods in their lives.

Now a compressor may be there, but the pro singer is not always going to need the compression as much as a karaoke singer who sings 3-4 songs a weeek and may still hurt their voice doing that. A Karaoke singer can get away with sounding hoarse the next day, a Pro singer on tour can't if they are expected to perform again.

Not to say that many or maybe even most "Pro"s do not use compressors, but they rely on them much less than may be needed for karaoke.

If you could make and draw as much money as she makes I'm sure the bar would let you go shoeless.

I loved it, and would go shoeless but it's to hard to two-step without boots

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I like everyone when I first meet them. If you don't like me that's not my problem it's YOURS!
A stranger is a friend you haven't met yet

A couple things here:
1. Rarely if ever is it the singers choice (yes even with today's pro touring divas). Very few of them would even understand what a compressor is or does. They rely on their sound engineers to make them sound "right" and very few could give two craps what the audio engineer is doing as long as they (the singer) are happy with what they're hearing and no one else is complaining.

2. Singers don't "rely" on compressors, neither do audio engineers. You make it sound like the compressor is a crutch that some under skilled audio engineer needs because they can't do things right. Not true at all. The compressor is a tool that an audio engineer has in his toolbox that serves many purposes. Most often it's used to ensure that audio reproduction equipment (i.e. PA, recording devices, etc) can most accurately reproduce the material without overloading, in some cases it's actually used for effect.

3. Any audio engineer worth a damn knows that when compressing vocals, the compression should not be audible. Some of this comes down to the quality of the compressor used and much of it is directly a result of the person at the controls. Except in rare instances where a compressor is used for purposes of producing an audible effect, vocal compression is typically used to ensure audible but not overloaded levels at both the peaks and the quietest of passages.

4. Find me one touring or house pro rig (meaning 5,000 seats or more) that does not have compressors a rack (or available through some digital means like a digital console or otherwise). You'll be searching for a long time. I've been doing this many years now and I've yet to see even one.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

My use is always as an effect. When an amateur karaoke singer gets to the "loudest" vocal part of a song I aim to have the compressor slightly above threshold, so if the singer moves closer to the mic, starts screaming, or whatever, the volume through the PA will not significantly increase. If the singer is of the sort that knows the chorus well and sings it loudly, but is way too quiet on the verse, I may knob-twiddle a bit more so their apparent vocal volume is more consistent without me "riding the fader" as much.

IMO compression is a really bad idea for an unskilled engineer, who may not understand how to use it, the compressor's impact on GBF, etc. It's not hard to learn how to use one, but as a vocal insert, it is not a "set and forget" tool and shouldn't be thought of that way.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

My point on compressors is that at Karaoke you can get a singer that will throw in an occasional yell or extra loud line unexpectedly, overwhelming the system (and ears of the listeners) if compression is not used.

A pro singer is less likely to just try to distroy the eardrums of their listeners.

Pros may use them for nuance in their singing but even then it is mainly for a very minor improvement in the sound quality.


Yes a major pro rig most likely has a compressor setup in the system. But then again how much it is used is another question, or even if it is used, if it is set to levels that significantly alter the outpust.

I haven't met a 'pro' sound engineer that hasn't used a compressor live for vocals. Not talking clubs, but arena type shows. No they may not rely on them, but guarantee they are being used. A properly dialed compressor can actually add dynmanics to someones vocals, they can also use them to compress a harsh frequency (ducking) where an eq is instereted into the sidechain, so when the singer powers up & that frequency is hit, the compressor will actually lower that frequency in a sense.
I know quite a few sound engineers that I hang with that work with the arena/large scale concert shows (single national acts to multiple bands), every one of them use compressors on vocals to some extent or for something.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I also am friends with someone who does all the big shows when they come to town... Nickelback, Bryan Adams, Travis Triit, ZZ Top, etc. Compression is definitely in the loop.

OK Unfortunately it's become clear that you have a limited understanding of compression so this conversation is likely bound for nowhere. Compression, as I said before, can be used for a number of different reasons. In some cases it's used to generate an audible effect (especially common on guitars and drums). However it's most common use and original intent is to shrink the dynamic range of the material being reproduced.

PA's generally have a dynamic range of about 100-120 db. When you figure in the signal to noise ratio and look at effective dynamic range, that drops to 80-100 db. Conversely, the average human voice (which has no noise floor) has a dynamic range of 130 db or better. So in a piece such as the one in the linked video here, where the difference between the quietest passages and the loudest can be quite significant, it would be impossible for the PA to reproduce the entire performance without compression. The compressor reduces the dynamic range of the performance such that PA, recording equipment (which has even more limited dynamic range than PA), or Broadcast equipment (even more limited still) can accurately reproduce the material at sufficient levels to be heard with out clipping.

As Lonman brought up, compression is also used to address specific frequencies using side chaining (although this isn't ducking, that's something else entirely). Removing sibilance (more commonly referred to as De-essing - reducing the 's' sound) is the most common uses.

** For the record if anyone is interested, ducking is the reduction of the level of one signal source triggered by another signal source. This is what DJ's use on the radio when they do talk-overs on the music. The music track is compressed (the level reduced) when the DJ's mic is providing input (i.e. he's talking). The effect is the music gets quieter while he talks and once he stops it comes back to full volume. The music is sent through the compressor with the DJ's mic signal sent through the sidechain input of the compressor. I actually use this at my shows, and for a while used to use it to automatically remove the house music when a karaoke track was playing.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Yep my bad! Wrong term there!

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Most pro singers use the new magic software to correct the pitch.. Right?

I know I need that..