Karaoke Forums

So I'm going over and over this in my mind and keep coming back to the same thing: If you buy a song that is duly licensed, legally purchasing it from someone who has paid for the rights to sell the reproduction of the song, you then have the right to play it (though technically not LEGALLY in public, certainly another issue).

So, you buy the rights to use the song, you aren't buying the CD. If you buy a download, you are buying the song, not the airwaves. My question is this: If anyone purchases a song legally, do they not have the right to play that song any way they want? Who decides the method in which I play the song (bits of data) that I have purchased the right to play? In other words: Are you buying the rights to play the song or play the CDG?

Think I'm missing something here...

I don't think you are missing anything. Unfortunately, many lawyers don't think the same way. It's not about logic. It's about money.

From a legal standpoint, you are purchasing a format (disc, tape, LP, download) in which the song to be played for your own personal use, not a way to play it commercially, however. That being said, most record companies & dare I say karaoke manus know these songs are being played & used professionally - which is why many got into business for originally - most of the karaoke manus relied solely on professional/commercial kj's when they started out since these were the primary purchasers of their products, NOT the home user/consumer, this may have changed these days with many kj's not buying what singers want, the singers actually go out & find the songs they want themselves.

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I agree with Loman, you purchace the format on which to play the song frome the manu. The manu of the legal format (if authorized by the true owner of the the lyrics and music composition) then issues you a licence to play that original format only. I think the problem arises when that original format is then shifted to a third party download site that resells the manus as a download NEVER having any licence from the manu to do so (although their website makes false claims that they are authorized to do so).

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No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

Remember back when we were buying records? You used to be able to transfer that album to cassette tape and it was totally legal to do so...this shouldn't be any different. Now we turn cds into mp3s. Same thing. Seems the karaoke manus are the only ones getting their underwear in a bunch over this, and effectively biting the hands that feed them in the process.

If I spend my hard-earned money on a product, I should be able to use it any way I damn well please.

Birdofsong

Bird the "format change" is completely legal for PERSONAL use and is in fact reflected in copyright law. Commercial use is a completely different animal.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

The thing that changes everything is the visual element.

Not a problem it seems if we dont display the Lyrics.

Like Timberlea said, the real legalities come in COMMERCIALLY - when you are making money off someone else's intellectual (artistic) property.

Look at the cover or maybe even disc of every CDG, and most of them say "For Personal Use Only" or "For Non-Commercial Use Only." If it is a legal disc, then everyone who owns the rights to each song on that disc has received compensation from the manufacturer for the right to use their intellectual property FOR HOME USE. The amount of compensation DUE to the copyright owner INCREASES above that blanket $$$ amount when someone ELSE is making money off that artist's song (commercial use).

Let's say YOU BIRDOFSONG write a song about your daughter or son that you sing as a lullabye at night. It is a great song, and other people ask your permission to sing it to their son/daughter as a lullabye at night. You would be honored, right? OK, now let's say you look up one day and BP is using your song in a commercial apologizing for the oil spill and advertising their product during American Idol, and they didn't ask you or pay you for it. See the difference?

Your local KJ might seem like a small time enterprise, but collectively it is a $10 billion industry. Why should GREEN DAY or the EAGLES let a $10 billion business profit off the songs they write without taking a cut, unless they want to.

That's all that's in question. The artists own the songs they wrote (unless they have sold the rights), and they should be the ones in charge of who can use it, and for what purpose, and how much they want to charge for someone else to make money off the song they created.

Likewise, SoundChoice owns the SoundChoice logo, and you can't just use their name, reputation, and logo unless they give you permission. If you could, then you could just open your own disc manufacturer called SoundChoice and sell an inferior product for the same prices they charge and piggyback off their name. They have the right to protect their trademark from being used without their consent.

At their core and intended meanings, these are very just laws that everyone should comply with. It is just VERY hard to police in the digital age, which is what causes all of the confusion and misinformation.

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C Mc
KJ, FL

Once again, I don't understand why we expend so much effort regarding legal questions? We are not IP lawyers. Some of the questions asked will never be answered until there is a test case.

And while we try to discuss laws that we realize we don't understand we often don't realize that we are unfamiliar with the exact meaning of all of the terminology that we encounter regarding those laws.

If you want to drive yourself nuts keep reading! When I got into the business and felt compelled to learn about the legal aspects of "copying" and the like, I called SC. And the first question i asked was about that the fact that their DISCS stated they could not be used for commercial use.

I was explained that karaoke shows were not the "commercial use" that SC was referring to. The definition of "commercial use" referred, for example, to someone using their backup track to create commercial advertising such as for a radio or TV commercial, or to make a recording for resale with and anything similar. It was NOT intended to prevent KJ's from playing SC discs at their karaoke shows, even though, technically, that IS a commercial use, as well!

It seem that the ARTISTS and WRITERS of songs SHOULD BE COMPENSATED when anyone BANDS DJ's KJ's make money from performing their songs in public.
THATS WHAT I THOUGHT BMI & APSCAP WERE ???

I think WE make a big deal, YES soundchoices library got copied all over the place and they have a GRIPE if they indeed actual PAID all the license fees for EVERY SONG they should have ? We know that "some " karaoke manus in the past DID NOT PAY the proper fees and get the required permission and licenses to produce certain songs or groups.

So whats the difference between buying a TRACK that's not legal from them or a loaded hardrive from some guys trunk ?????

I used to be in the video business and created videos for national distribution. Music from the soundtrack had to be dealt with. I had to contact Harry Fox and pay a "Fixing" fee for the rights to use each song and a "per use" fee for each video I sold. The per use fees varied, but were generally in the 6 cent range.

OK. The manufacturer is paying a fixing fee to the publisher to use the music. They may or may not pay a per use fee for each CDG they press. Also songwriters and performers (on a normal CD) get paid from a pool for songs played live or on a jukebox or TV at your local venues through annual fees charged by BMI. That fee should also be covering songs sung during karaoke. I'm not sure if there is a difference between the lyrics on the TV or the TV show itself.

Now comes the Legal Local KJ. He is covered by the venue (assuming they pay) for playing the music. It would appear that when it comes to doing things the correct way, everything should be covered. But to keep Karaoke a viable industry, we who are making the attempt to clean it up, need to think outside the box.

The average number of songs played in an hour is 15 to 20. The average show 4 to 5 hours. What would it cost each of us to agree to pay a usage fee on each song played at our show? Let's see - 5 hours X 20 songs X 6 cents per song = $6.00 per show.

Add a kicker - get the KIAA (or some other organization) to negotiate that the fee will be used to help police the industry. If there is a difference in the law concerning home use and commerical use, then there may need to be an advantage to the copyright holders to help alleviate the frustration concerning how the law is interpreted when it come to karaoke.

If we are paying a fee, then there should be no concern for whether or not we choose to format shift. Even SC knows that they need to get on board with new technologies. But it's a fine line we create when those that are trying to do things legally are disadvantaged by the pirates if we are not allowed to format shift.

We must also be proactive and become part of the solution. We can get on here and (@$%&#!) all day, but if we don't do anything to protect ourselves and our livelihoods, then why should the pirates stop doing what they are doing? They know full well that getting caught is a crap shoot at best (especially in small rural communities).

I'm not sure what path we can take to help in the policing that would be effective. Legally, even Ebay doesn't want to deal with someone who complains unless the complainer is the copyright holder. We can flag ads on Craigslist, but they seem to come back the next day. You can contact CB or SC and let them know of an illegal KJ or venue, but that takes a lot of time. And you might win the battle and lose the war in your community if you push the issue with the bar owners that don't seem to care.

The difference is that in your scenario, someone asked me if they could sing the song. They didn't pay me. Here, I am paying good money for these discs.

Tovmod nailed it. That is my understanding of "commercial use" as well.
And like Jam pointed out, BMI and Ascap, Socan, etc are the entities that collect because we play them in public.
As for format shifting, even for KJ's, I believe that a test case will prove out that format shifting is perfectly legal, just as it was for records and cassettes and just as is for regular Dj's. Commercial use is only ONE of FOUR factors that will determine legality. I'm confident that the other three will overrule "commercial use". Sadly, that test case may be a long time coming...

Old,and beaten. There is no such thing as the combination license rquired in the U.S. to use downloaded tracks in a U'S' based show- period. It IS legal in the UK, and other jurisdictions, but not here. Anyone who runs a download based show in the U.S is as illegal as any duped HD pirate, even if they paid for the tracks.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Although it is "old and beaten", you are correct. Some still don't get it.

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No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

without reading entire thread...


If I buy Avatar on Blu-Ray, can I rip it to my laptop and then advertise that it will be shown this Friday night during happy hour? Dont I have the right to play it anyway I want?

I hope you are kidding when you asked the question but just in case you aren't, here goes:
If you played the movie during happy hour unless you paid the approiate public performance fees/permissions then you would be in violation of copyright laws as it is explained on the splash screen before the beginning of the movie.

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No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

I usually put a blanket over me in my bed with the windows sealed and blocked, my front door double locked and even my bedroom door locked, just to sing karaoke. I can tell you I'm the best singer ever but I cannot prove it because I might have a lawsuit. I'm surprised Singers Forum is still running without lawyers suing the singers for using licensed songs and distributing them on this site.