Karaoke Forums

After reading the thread on ASCAP fees where comments were made that if $1500-$3000 a year was too much for a bar to pay in licensing fees, they were probably "on the edge of going out of business".

I don't think many realize how little working capital many bars operate on. That's why most vendors who sell to bars, including liquor and beer distributors, are all C.O.D. At least if a bar pays $1 for a bottle of beer and sells it for $4, that's an immediate and tangible return.

When a bar pays $1000 a month for one night of karaoke a week ($200 to the KJ per night, plus another $200 a month in licensing) there's no immediate and tangible return. The bar HOPES that the karaoke will bring in more people and sell more drinks. But that's not always the case. How many times have I read here how many singers drink water or nurse a Coke or beer all night?

The bar has to have enough seating and enough people to amortize the cost of live entertainment. Certainly your average hole-in-the-wall neighborhood bar with $3 draft and a capacity of 75 people is going to have more of a challenge paying that extra money, than a huge nightclub, sports bar or bar/restaurant which could conceivably entertain several hundred people.

So my question is at your venue, how many people are usually in the bar at your shows? 25? 50? 100 or more?

My take is karaoke has become too ubiquitous and bars who can't possibly make money on it - either due to low drink prices or low capacity - are seeking out KJs who charge next to nothing because that's all they can afford. The result? Bad KJs, unhappy owners, empty bars.

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Nail, head, hit.

Anywhere from <10 (for the night) to 80+ depending on venues. That's for how many people come in because there is karaoke, versus those who would have been there anyway.

Jonn

Strong agreement from the UK.

Been the Landlord.
Lost the money.

If the bar sucks, no entertainment is going to help it. Karaoke isn't to bring in customers......it's to entertain some of the people that show up. I know of several bars where karaoke is nothing but noise to most of the people there.
And the number one attraction that can pack a bar......chicks.....if you can attract them, the place will not have enough seats.......works for Lesbian bars too.... don't let this rough manly exterior fool you......the heart that beats inside my chest, is the heart of a lesbian.....

edit....oh, and the number of people at my show, that is if you show up, would be two......

If the bar sucks, the only thing to help IS entertainment.
Or a Promise. Of entertainment.

A nearby bar used to be packed on karaoke night. But....they quit having karaoke because it caused too many problems! Now they only have karaoke maybe twice a year there. On the other hand, I've seen karaoke bars with just skeleton crowds and wondered how they were able to make it.

Pretty much agree. I've seen some decent shows in small bars, but it was usually because the person was new to the business and didn't have a following.

Re: the bar business, Hoovers.com has some interesting numbers...

There are roughly 45,000 bars in the United States taking in $18 BILLION in annual revenue which after the math means that the average US bar takes in $400,000 per year. (Or if you want another way to think about it, average annual revenue is $50,000 per employee.)

So a mom and pop place without any other help could conceivably take in $100,000 or so a year and at say a 10% profit margin after paying all the bills and a small salary for the owners conceivably only clear maybe $10,000 a year. I could see them sweating over the ASCAP fees.

10% of bars fail in their first year and a bar that's only set up to make $10,000 or so profit seems like a prime target to become one of those statistics. What's the number one reason for any business failure? Under-capitalization, right?






http://www.hoovers.com/bars-and-nightclubs/--ID__277--/free-ind-fr-profile-basic.xhtml

On my weeknight thrusday shows it tends to be between 40-60 lately for at least some time.

Occasionally more, for a 3 hour show 11-2. Tonight was more than average maybe 80 in the bar at the peak, 100 at one time or another in the night.

But drink prices in town are LOW. Usually 1.50-3 for a beer and 3-4$ for mixed drinks.

I seriously doubt the total take for the night was >600-700 most nights are probably closer to 400

One place I play is always a packed house at the start of the show ( 9pm with close to 100 people) the crowd start to shrink at about 11:30 and the show ends at 12:30 with maybe 10-20 leaving when I play my closing song. But I have also had nights that I ran long due to the amount of people staying.

The other place I play I average about 25 people at the start of the show ( 9pm) but they really start coming in around 10pm and they stay till I shut down at 1am. i would say during the hour of 11 we have about 50 to 70 people. but with this bar it all changes by the weather.... if it rains its packed if its nice out it could be a ghost town I am sure it is due to the race track about 20min away...... God I love that redneck town!

I have a show tonight at the second one above and WOOOHOOOO its looking like rain!

Dan
I agree with you that these costs for most average bars is a big deal and when forced to pay can make them re-think their entertainment budget/value.


I can't agree with you and most here that seem to believe the FEE a KJ charges has anything to do with the quallity of show or even if it is legal or not.
It's just not the case. I've been up against KJ who charge LESS THAN ME that hav had decent shows and vice-versa.

My saturday night gigs gets about 10-15 singers and about the same non singers.But then again its a bar inside a liqour store --so not your avergage BAR

When Thom played at the local bar (only supposed be 56 total seating capacity) the bar was usually packed with mostly standing room only usually until closing with him sometimes playing past the 1:30 closing.
Then he decided to not run the show anymore for the lady he was supposed to be just helping every once in while.
Now the bar might have 20 people in it and the patrons ask when is he going to run it again and that they don't like the current person doing it. The owner is one that really should not be an owner since he would does not like to fire friends. As a consequence the bar is failing fast.
If we do show up just to sing and people walking by see him in there they will stop in and stay some for the karaoke just because of him. Most now will phone each other to say that "Thom is down for karaoke". So yea sometimes just the person running it can make a difference.
If you want to know what makes him so fun then you have to understand all the stuff that he's done that has given him an edge in dealing with people:
Improve - acting and directing
Movie
Band
DJ
Stage plays
Just some of the stuff that he's done so that helps with manipulating people and helping them have a good time. Even when he played an evil char for a festival there were little kids that got upset when he "lost" his fight during the ending of the show cause they wanted to see him win, .

This is an interesting metric. That being said...

Has anyone ever been called by a bar to do a weekly gig, and when you went out there to see the place and the potential...you turned them down?

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Well,,,I have actually done that twice!!! Both times recently. First was a very small place, only has room for about 25-30 people, they just could not afford me, the couldn't sell enough to make it worth my while. And the second place was basically across the street from the other. Second one was a nice place, it's an old converted theater into a performance house, if you could call it that, it's not a bar. The owners had it set up pretty well, but not for karaoke, and the owners had no clue how to run a business, it really had nothing to do with capability, just they didn't WANT to listen to any outside ideas. So, yeah, I have turned down offers.

I have turned down several gig offers after checking out the place, and at two others have "requested to be fired" after playing two shows at each and seeing how the management handled/failed to handle their business.

I have turned down 4 pubs.
Trouble is I have to really like the place.
If the customers are not nice people it's no.
Then I do have a day job.

On a side idea I wonder if some bars that are incurring a loss on a karaoke night are doing it because without karaoke the loss would be even greater! Perhaps it's like some stores that make no money until the weekend but they still have to be open on the unprofitable days.

- Jonn

Since discussion has moved onto income here are some numbers. The people numbers are head counts it's hard to judge how many come and go thoughout the night. I have also included drink prices for the bars.

We are paid a set minimum by our bars every night. Once a set sales are reached we are paid 10% of gross sales. So if sales are $2500 for the night we make $250.
It works out great last year Wedneday before Thanksgiving the bar did almost $6000 and they paid us $600.



Tuesday 50 to 120 people. Average will hit 80 - 100 people there at once.
Domestic Draft Beer $1.50 Mixed Drink $3

Wednesday Bar #1 120 to 150 people every week
Domestic Draft Beer $2.75 Mixed Drink $4

Wednesday Bar #2 40 to 50 people
Domestic Draft Beer $2 Mixed Drink $3

Thursday Bar #1 30 to 50 people
$2 Any Drink Special, $2 Drafts, $3 Mixed Drink

Thursday Bar #2 40 to 60 people
$1 Rum and Coke Special, $2 Drafts, $3 Mixed Drink

Friday DJ only No Karaoke 150 to 200 people
$2 Captains, $2 Miller Lite Bottles

Saturday Bar #1 70 to 80 people
$3 Bottles, $3.50 Mixed Drinks

Saturday Bar #2 50 to 60 people
$2 Drafts, $2.75 Mixed Drinks

Sunday 60 to 80 people
$1.75 Miller Lite Bottles. Reg Draft $3, Mixed Drinks $3.50