Karaoke Forums

Just curious, because the more I read the more I fail to understand anyone supporting anything this ludacris(Sp?).............. this is just one of of the most recent articles I've read that concern me............. I hope I'm not breaking a rule, by posting the link... P,L, & Ss. S.

http://blindman.15.forumer.com/a/ascap- ... 35872.html

No the system is not perfect, and some business owners would prefer to play the music without any artist ever getting a penny. Also like tax dollars, money sometimes goes to places where we would rather not support, while other areas are underfunded.

Not sure about how they determine what each establishment pays, or how each artist gets paid...

But one venue(hotel lounge) I frequent was quoted at $700 for the YEAR, their average take Thursday nights went from $400(b4 karaoke) to about $2000(w/Karaoke). If they cancelled Karaoke and got rid of the jukebox to save that $14 per week IMO it would not have been a smart business move. They did not ask for any RETRO payments or penalties, but I suspect those fines maybe levied against those that ignore the more friendly requests.

If you think it would be easier to track what songs get played in your establishment and send individual checks to each producer/artist yourself, when ASCAP sends you a notice just provide them with the proof and I am sure they will leave you alone. The licensing companies will not sleep in your establishment to monitor what music is played, some artists may get more than their fair share and some might get short changed. The artists/producers are not forced to sign with these licensing agencies, they are free to try to collect from the establishments themselves.




Like I said b4, you cant have a STAR WARS(or any movie) night in your bar without LUCAS giving you permission, EVEN IF YOU PAID FOR THE DVDs. So why would playing Johnny Cash music/karaoke be any different?


I would say, that you are in a remote enough location to TRY OUT the karaoke, and if it works out and yields enough to pay for the licensing fees involved stick with it and get licensing at that point.

Also understand that AScap, BMI and the like won't accept payment from the entertainment themselves unless they are the venue owner's. It is the bar's responsibility to pay these agencies, not the karaoke host.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

A friend of mine was a guitar player ina band that he acually helped write a song, they are registered with ascap & do receive a royalty check every month - they are not by any means 'known' as far as popularity, however because of ascap (and the likes), they receive the royalties each month they deserve for each radio play & any club that may play them. For clubs, it's more of a 'blanket' license for any of the members - whether they are played or not, if you want to actually research EVERY song that is actually covered, go for it & pull those 'popular' songs from your book & you'll be ok - not a frequented club, but you won't have to cover those songs. Just pay the fee & be fine.
Every place i've ever worked from when I started (in 91) until now hos paid no more than $1000 for a year - breaks down to a little more than $19 per night, if you cannot afford that for karaoke AND anything else, you shouldn't be in the bar business!!! PERIOD!!!!

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$19 per night seems fair ...but the owners usually just take that off/from the entertainment themselves.

Where is the calculation sheet for this stuff?

I mean if a bar/club has something going on 7 days a week is the cost $19 every day ? ... I mean that's $6935 a year. Hard for most small business OWNERS to cough up.

It is not a straight $19 per night for everyone, in Lonmans example that $1000 was the max payed by any of his clubs... and based on 1 night of karaoke per week it broke down to $19 per night.

Not exactly sure how they determine the fee, but I imagine there are several factors.

SIZE(and seating capacity)
Dance floor?
Stage?
Number of TVs.
Jukebox
Nights per week that licensed music will be played(that includes bands/karaoke/jukebox/other).
Operating hours.


Lets remember, this is not just about karaoke. But I do know that if establishments arnt licensed, a big karaoke banner or ads will get the licensing agencies attention very quickly. I assume that is why some assume it is all about karaoke.

I actually mis spoke, my current club is paying approx $1825 per year (now this is to the 3). Still breaks down to about $5 per night (per publisher) - this is a 7 night club. Occupancy is 200 cap.

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I wonder... does anyone know how much a radio station pays for the privilege of playing a song? Is it a few cents per play?

Very complicated...

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/ ... lties7.htm


Seems like it depends on...
Number of times played
Time of day played
capacity song was played in(IE played in its entirety or just as background music)
Total amount of money collected
Position reached on airplay charts(bonus for top hits)

Ascap/Bmi are a legit cost to reward songwriters for their effort. Although their methods of determining the fees for a club are a little less than transparent and appear at times a bit arbitrary, I veiw them as a generally good thing for the industry (IE paying those that create).

The other complaint is that they strongly favor the big names in their system of paying the songwriters. That is a good thing for the top 100 hit artists, but less good for the smaller songwriters who not only rarely get paid anything, but the culbs where they perform are forced to pay fees that are passed onto bigger artists.

The only problem I have with ASCAP, BMI and SESAC is that I think they should merge into one organization and make it simpler for the bar owners by letting them pay one organization one annual fee.

I hear that the "Rep" that shows up just may ramp up the fees "Just Because".

A club in Ventura was dinged for additional $$ because the restaurant portion could "Hear" the singers in the bar.... Several rooms away.. I call BS..

AND...it is a random sampling. A US radio station will typically do ASCAP/BMI logging for a few weeks annually. They don't know the exact date/time stamp of every spin.

In some sense they are legalized extortion. Going by occupancy numbers (rather than average patron count / register take) makes it difficult to start a new karaoke night as you don't know if the fees are going to make it worthwhile. I know they offer monthly fees but this can work out to close to twice what you would pay if you pay annually up front.

My new venue has just got the visit, but since they are doing karaoke now 4 nights a week with live music on the fifth I'm expecting they will decide it is in their better interest to pay rather than cancel these blossoming crowd pullers.

One company or at least a single point of contact would definitely be an improvement.

- Jonn

The fun part is that these so called Artist Organizations SUPPOSEDLY exist to get royalties for the artists- who are are constantly suing them because they are not disbursing the funds. The artists constantly have to pry the money from them through litigation...

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" Disc based and loving it..."

Oh and if their websites would allow you to research their fees by entering bar details, size, TVs type of music etc etc. But that would be as likely as England or the USA getting far enough in the world cup. (Not impossible but.......)

Jonn

BMI used to have just that form that was avilable in a writable pdf file.
http://www.bmi.com/forms/licensing/gl/ede.pdf
Doesn't calculate, but you can figure it out as you go down the page, this would be from a bars standpoint so any other entertainment would need to be figured in as well.

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Lonman,

Thanks for that link....

That came out to about $1600 a year (just for BMI) for a 180 capacity venue with karaoke 2-4 nights a week, along with DJ and dancing. Let's be honest, where would you have karaoke without dancing of some kind.

The difference between just one night and 2-4 nights is very small so it is much more expensive on a 'per night' basis for single night shows versus multiple nights.

Assuming that each of the other companies come in at similar prices that could be over $4000 a year. $80 a week for 2-4 nights or maybe $60 a week for one night. I can see how some venues (like the one I lost) would be turned off by this.

The problem is simply that venue occupancy permit does not translate into 'bums on seats'. IMHO the companies need to offer some kind of introductory pricing structure or some way of calculating average occupancy.

</rant>

Jonn

I figured it to be about $1323 per year given your specs. Box would not apply if there is no live music at the venue. Which breaks down to about $25 per week for BMI.

But even at $80 per week, breaks to $11.50 per night. Small price to pay and if they can't afford that, they aren't doing something right to begin with - this should be covered with 2 pitchers of beer.

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