Karaoke Forums

Ok, I turned down a guy offering to make copies... but....

As you know (if you read any of discerations disguised as posts) I'm an up and coming KJ. I'm currently buying anything I can get my hands on (that's original and of good quality) to build my library. I just picked up the Sound Choice Foundation I & II (for $520 together), and a number of other discs. There are a number of discs that I'd like to have that are OOP (out of print). Some of these discs sell for upwards of $250-500 EACH. I'd like to have them but it's hard to justify paying that kind of money for something I can get from another vendor (perhaps of lesser quality) for MUCH less.

There's a KJ that's shutting down and I've bought a number of discs from him (all originals) and he's offering to make me copies of 2 hard to get discs (perhaps more) for a much lower price than they 'normally' sell for when they are available. While it's easy for me to turn down his offer to burn me the Bricks and many other discs I can find/order (even at half the cheapest price I've found) it's harder to turn down something that I'm not able to find an original of at any reasonable price right now.

How do you handle tracks from a company that are OOP? Do you try to find the originals at a reasonable price, use copies from a friend until you do, or just don't worry about it going with another company (if the tracks are even available) or something else? I'm just curious as to what the general consensus is regarding OOP discs and trying to add them to your library.

FYI - I'm not looking for justification to commit piracy (they should call it what it really is - THEFT). I'm trying to see how others handle this sort of dilemma - maybe there's a better way to get OOP tracks.

you have to walk your own path to enlightenment. We can show you a way, or many ways to do things, but ultimately your own morality will have to guide you.

If something is out of print, for me, that doesn't make it okay to have it at your show. HOWEVER, I have NO problem whatsoever with playing copies of my out of print stuff that I COMMERCIALLY own. I bought and paid for them. Later, they were determined to be a problem and were discontinued.

I have a copy of SC8125 (my old partner had the original)... and I love it. BUT it's not a part of my public library. I don't own an original of it, and will NEVER pay $250 or more for it.

But that's me. I know I can operate with copies IF I'm legal in every other way. My operation of using backups in no way takes money out of the manufacturers. I could do that, but refuse to do it. My own morality stops me from profiting off someone else's hard work.

But that's me... your own path is yours to take. However you're doing the right thing in asking questions and wondering "is this right"??

Matt

Knight, I have to ask you something regarding your reply, and ps. I don't want to pick a fight


So, you DO have an illigal copy, which is NOT part of your public library. Now here's where my confusion comes in. So you won't use it on your show while KJ'ing right? What do you do with this CD?

I come in peace!

Probably like me, He uses it for his own pleasure at home. It is only Illegal if used commercially. I have it at home as well as numerous other oop cdg's but they dont go to the road.

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Dr. D & KnightShow

Webster defines commercial as -
a: viewed with regard to profit <a commercial success> b : designed for a large market


So let's get this crystal clear, with a simple yes or no
what you are saying is that if I make a copy of a disk, and I do not use it commercially, it's OK?
Please Circle [Yes] / [No]

Now, if I take this disk, and go to your show, will you play it for me? It's still not commercial, because only I use this disk, without regard to any profit making.
Please Circle [Yes] / [No]


Thanks guys, and looking forward to an answer,

The pristine condition of a disc in order to be preserved needs a copy to be played instead.Law enforcement checks ask that you own the original copy.Not your pal down the road.Those that love karaoke and spend money on their hobby and recoup a small percentage of that by providing shows have to do that out of necessity but tell me are the big guys who look to run them out of town not running any number of shows on the one back up copy...I doubt it very much.

to start with the webster definition is not in the law. If I am using a cdg disk in my home, I am not using it for commercial gain.
If I use it in a Karaoke show I am using it for a profit..

Nope, I don't play burns in my show. I don't have any disks in my show. It is all computer operated, and No, I do not have the Pirate cdg's on the computer system. I have enough different versions of any song you want that are legal, that I don't have to.

But that is my choice.

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I'm Not Dead yet...... But every day Im getting Closer !

Dr. D
I did not state that Webster was the law, it was the definition of the word commercial. My question has still not been answered in that respect.
what you are saying is that if I make a copy of a disk, and I do not use it commercially, it's OK?
Please Circle [Yes] / [No]

Secondly, I also run Hoster, so would you play an original disk at your show? Because you know it is possible, unless you don't have a Plextor in your system.

Dr. D,

with all due respect I think you are wrong. Copyright laws apply equally for commercial and non-commercial use.

Otherwise it would be legal to:

- copy computer programs and use them at home or give them away.

- have your harddrive filled with copies of mp3 encoded songs that you do not own. Many kids have found themselves in million dollar infringement lawsuits exactly because of that.

I am no attorney, but money does not need to change hands for you to violate copyright laws.

I don't KJ, but I have 1300 songs (Foundation 1, 2+Brick 1 and misc discs) that I have bought legally. I don't have a single copy and I feel very good about that.

Morten

Morton, I totally understand what you are saying.

However, I don't think there is anything wrong with backing up your originals for PERSONAL use.

Just put it this way......can you imagine if you had a 1,000 (or whatever number) CD collection (not karaoke, but music, or hey, even karaoke).

You store your stuff in your house. Well, one night, someone breaks into your house and steals your hard earned, expensive 1,000 CD collection, with some CD's hard to find or not created anymore. Now, would you not be mad?

Now, lets say instead, you backed all of your CD's up, and kept the ORIGINALS off site (ie. bank's security box you can rent). Now, your CD's get stolen, but the burned copies. Now who is laughing? The theives can't do anything cause the burned discs are useless, and you still have all your oginals safe and sound

I can't see why it would be illegal to protect your investment. You are not breaking any laws as long as you have proof that you have the originals.

If you are not selling them, or profiting from them, then you should be okay (as far as I know anyway). To me, that is the whole point of a CD burner.

I was in a car accident, and I lost a few CD's becuase they broke, and got scratched. I was lucky as most of them were burned, and my originals were okay.

Sorry, and just to add........

The music industry is getting a lot smarter with offering Paid Downloads so people can buy music off the internet and make CD's.

Why don't karaoke companies offer the same thing? Why can't soundchoice put up a few tracks and you can buy the CD+G single off their website, rather than a whole CD for $50.00 that has one song you want?

That is my biggest beef. I would proably be their best customer ! Just a thought.

Sorry to get off track Allstar

Allstar,
you have to decide for yourself what to do, I don't play burned disks at a show, only originals.

But here are some good reading for you
http://www.ipjustice.org/karaokefairuse.shtml

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I'm Not Dead yet...... But every day Im getting Closer !

Fair use allows you to backup a disc you own for personal use only. Once the copy enters a commercial venue, then you are in violation - technically. Now whether you would get prosecuted for it is a completely different story.

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Dr. D, I totally agree with your statement regarding playing someone elses disks. It's every KJ's decision for himself (ps. thank you for the link) but................

You still haven't answered the main question!!!!!!!

Please Circle [Yes] / [No]

I'm saying it is your decision, and something you have to live with. Legally it is vague.

Right now some Karaoke companies are in a lawsuit over the fact they produced disks without paying royalties, and sold them. but yet they want to bully us into not doing the same. you decide for yourself.

I am not one of those wholier than thou types that is going to condem you for making backups.

for me personally I do have copies of a couple of disks that are out of production. that said they are irreplacable If I have the original or not, they will not go to a show. they can't be replaced.

as for playing a copyied disk in my house, for the last 30 years people have taped tv shows, radio songs, and played them at home for their own enjoyment. Now if you have a tv in a bar, or a radio playing in a bar, you have to pay to do the same thing. that is my point.

Im not skirting the issue, decide for yourself!!!!!!!

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I'm Not Dead yet...... But every day Im getting Closer !

I vowed I'd never get invoved in one of these threads again but let me try to put a different light on it again. I remember the days when one could drive by bars esp fri aft's abour 5p and there would be pickups on the street with thousands of dollars of tools sittin in the back. Of course that was back in the days when even thieves had scruples.and didnt steal or screw with a man's tools. Would you walk into a auto repair shop and ask the mechanics if they paid for or how they got their tools? Not!!! Would you walk into a dance hall and question or worry about where the band members got their equipment?
Do you ask the bar owner if he bought all his stock from a distributor or look for tax stamps on cigarette packs?

With the world situation as it is I sure don't want the Fbi or Secret service wasting their time in some little bar or club harrassing some working stiff. (they are the only ones who can enforce federal laws)
I think Beachbum made one the most logical statements when he said the ones he dont like are the ones putting together another or several systems with copys.and I agree with him totally..

Now anybody is welcome at my shows but do not come in and try to harrass any of my help or any of my customers and do NOT question me about my tools... I have literally starved to put together about 12000 tracks... When I get this months 6 cd's from top hits it''ll go above..Which in todays standards 12000 is average or below.

I think I did answer this. Yes you can make a copy of a disc you own for personal use only - in home use - legally. Once you use it in a commercial venue of any kind, then you are technically in violation of copyright laws.

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Hi Lonman

What you state is perfectly clear.

My point I'm getting to is this

KnightShow


Dr. D


What they claim to have is a copy of a disk (or more) that they DO NOT have the originals, and DUE TO THAT they will not use these copies commercially. OK!
My question to them was - Is that legal?????????? That's what I expect Dr. D to answer

Here is some more interesting reading about that subject:

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/ch1.html

Sec. 107 talks about fair use.

I think that it is all very ambigous. But, it may help

Mine is technically illegal... it belongs to my ex-partner. Back when I was working with him, I had a working backup of our library, in case something ever went kablooey.

After he and I split, he said I could keep the disc for rememberances. I use it at home (like once or twice.)... but mostly I use it for comparing the tracks to the legal discs I have. Zoom's new Eagles's disc for one, Legends, and backstage.

That being said, (the illegal rip) is at home, and not in my library.

I use copies of my originals in my show. Yet the one thing I have noticed in this thread is those that use MTU's Hoster... in other words, mp3gs (or their version of that compressed file) is on computer disc... a REPRODUCTION (the same as a copied cdg)... a Digital copy of the original disc.

I'm no more illegal than they are. ORRrrrr, to put it bluntly, they are no more legal than I am.