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 Post subject: Adding wireless option
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:12 am 
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I've decided (even though I hate wireless for karaoke) to add wireless mics to my set-up. I currently run 2 sm58's (wired). I've been having problems with goof-balls that even though they know that these are corded mics, that they want to "play the room". I use 25' cords, and that's all the length I want the singers to have, so nobody else trips on the cord while these goofs are roaming all over creation. I only have this problem from a very few singers (using that term lightly). So, I've decided to give these "few" the freedom they want. I'm going to purchase the Nady DKW DUO set that is so heavily discussed on this forum. I figure it is a very small investment, and should make everybody happy, including ME. The singers who usually do this stuff are the ones that are there to just act crazy, and abuse everything anyhow, or SCREAM into the mics, or spout obscenities. They usually don't care how they sound anyhow. It will be interesting to see who will actually rather sing on the Nady's (wireless), or on the Shure wired. Any opinions on my plan?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:26 am 
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I don't really have an opinion, but if/when you do get those Mics, could you please post over in the KJs ONLY section (in a topic thread I opened) about how you like/dislike them?

http://www.karaoke-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=19796


I hear ya (with regard to people tripping over the cords). That's the main reason I have wireless Mics. I use 2 Wireless and 1 corded at my shows. When a group of people come up to the stage (at one time to sing), I will position the 3rd singer all the way to my Right and tell them to stay in the one spot (no dancing about) because of the cord.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:32 am 
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I'll let you know how I like/dislike them. Thankfully, I haven't had anyone trip over the mic cords yet, but it's such a hassle telling people that it's a corded mic, you can only go so far (numbskull). You'd think it was common sense, but evidently, that's a thing of the past.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:36 am 
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The singers who usually do this stuff are the ones that are there to just act crazy, and abuse everything anyhow, or SCREAM into the mics, or spout obscenities.


Expect these kind of singers to break your mics pretty quickly, like within a few weeks. I wouldn't hand over even $5.00 equipment to people who were going to abuse it.

I also use Shure SM58s, mostly because they can take the abuse. A Nady wireless is not going to take any abuse. I have a Shure PG58 wireless set, but I would not even consider using it at my weekly karaoke show. It wouldn't last 1/2 of the first night! I use it exclusively for private parties and weddings.

One more thing to keep in mind is the famous Shure SM58 "proximity affect" that the Nady's won't have. More inexpensive mics like these are going to be boosted in the mid range to make their tone sound "better" out of the box. I'm sure that you have noticed that a Shure SM58 sounds best when the singer puts it right up to their mouth, and that is by design. Be warned that the base dB level of these Nady's is going to be HIGHER, and the sound is going to be BRIGHTER, so whatever base setting you have right now for the Shures, drop the gain about 10-15% for the Nady's, or your first screamer is going to lose you audience members :shock:

Let us know how it goes!! I think you are going to learn real fast that even the best wireless mics are not as rugged as the worst wired mics. They are NOT built for abuse!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:58 am 
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As Topher mentioned, you'll definitely have significant level and EQ differences between the mics so you'll have to be ready to account for that. A quick trial run before you use them on your first show would probably be a good idea. If you use a monitor and are familiar with ringing it out, I'd recommend going through that process again now using both mics (one at a time). I'm sure from our previous discussions you've already got a pretty good handle on what else to expect audio wise so I won't revisit any of that here.

As far as your idea overall, it's an interesting one. I too would be concerned that these wireless mics will not have near the durability of those SM58's. However, in your case it sounds like the mics aren't what's taking the abuse so maybe you'll be alright. I have to admit it's extremely rare that my mics get dropped.

I agree that it will be interesting to see how your singers respond. Will they put priority on the audio quality of the mics or is the ability to be wireless going to be too much to resist. How many singers will even pay enough attention to notice the audible differences between the mics. I have my own theories on this, I'm betting most will opt for the wireless just for the sake of being wireless, and few will pay enough attention to notice or care about the difference. I'll make that prediction right now.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:19 am 
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All my wired mics are SM58's.. I have two set out on stands for singers, and use the third for my 'booth' mic.

I picked up a pair of those Nady wireless mics from MusiciansFriend.com for $50 well over a year ago.. sounds like that's the same set you're talking about. Now they sell for $39 for the pair.. just because occasionally i'd have someone walk up and say, "What? No wireless mics?"

I wasn't about to spend $400 on a wireless SM58 for some random bozo to drop, and didn't want to gamble buying mid range priced mics at the $200 level. When I found these mics for $50, I figured what the heck.. i'll roll the dice.

After 14 months of use 3 to 4 nights a week, they've been dropped several times. The battery compartment on the one broke and i've got black tape around it to hold it on. Both windscreens are pretty battered, but both mics work, and sound just as good as they did when they were new.

They're no SM58 in regards to sound quality, but they're certainly passable. Range isn't fantastic, either. When the club gets full of people, they will occasionally cut out for a half second or two if the singer trys to walk around the bar or venture out on the patio.

But for the price.. especially now that they're only $39 for the pair.. you can't beat it. I mean, come on.. for the price of one decent quality 25' XLR to XLR mic cord, you can buy TWO wireless microphones.

The fact that you can set each mics level at the receiver is nicer than some of the other cheap options i've seen that just mix both mic signals with a single control.

I'd prefer to have independant mic outputs and control the level at the mixing board, but again.. for the price, I can live with it.

Most of my singers gravitate to the wireless mics.. they have the 'ohh this is wireless.. it must be better' mentality.. kind of like, "Ohh that car LOOKS fast, so it must BE fast!"

So the short answer is they don't sound bad, they aren't built to be dropped, and when they do drop the battery end usually hits hard, so keep some black tape in your gig bag, but for the price now, $39.. so what?

You could buy TEN sets of these (20 mics) for what a SINGLE wireless SM58 costs ($399)

About 6 months ago I bought a second set to use as a backup, and have yet to open the box.

One other note.. seems like I get about 4 hours of continuous operation off of a 9volt battery in these things. Instead of putting the mics on a stand, I just hand them to the singer as they walk up, and turn the mic on as i'm handing it to them.. then when they hand it back, I switch it off.

Using that method, I can get a single 9v battery to last several shows.

I've been meaning to invest in some high quality rechargeable 9 volt batteries.. just haven't gotten around to it yet.. because buying 9v batteries can get expensive after awhile.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:43 am 
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At the risk of opening myself up for abuse, what you describe wanting to do is the exact set-up we have been using for the past two years--although our good mic is an Audix and not the Shure. When the Nady's go, I want to "upgrade" to the AKGs but it is mainly from pressure from here rather than dis-satisfaction with the Nadys.

Observations from use: 1. The other hosts at our venue bought a wonderful $400 wireless mic. First night out the owner of the venue got drunk, dropped and broke it and didn't offer to help with repair costs. So we haven't invested in expensive wireless for that type of venue.

2. It is a small venue with the dance floor abutting the stage. Cord entaglement is a problem so wireless is more convenient. Also, people do like to roam and play the crowd, lead conga lines, do the limbo, etc. so having a mic that doesn't make you want to kill the singer for fear they will drop it is handy for maintaining a fun host attitude.

3. Over a two year period of weekly use, the Nadys have been dropped at least 7 times, used to break up a bar fight and even slammed down really hard on the bar by a singer who got mad at his buddy. I think they are so cheap and light they just float to the ground. They also don't put out teeth, etc. So far the only damage is a cracked case from someone high fiving another person with the mics in their hands. This being said, one of the Dou is louder and "better" than the other and I have read reviews where people noticed the same thing to the point that some even got a set with one mic that didn't work at all. My boyfriend uses the lesser mic to announce. But quality control will vary. I often wonder if some people just got lucky and got a better set than another person and that is why opinions are so extreme from one side to the other.

4. You just bought compression. We have only had screamers maybe twice but our compression worked great and there was no ear damage. I think Letitrip once mentioned cheap wireless have a feature that almost acts like built in compression?

5. Sound is brighter, pick up is easier. Females can hit the high notes easier. Men have to have the lows lessened a bit. Some men with low voices will sound muddy no matter what and we refer them to the Audix.

6. We have both the Nady and the Audix set up next to each other for the singer to choose. GOOD/PROFESSIONAL singers notice the difference immediately. Yet some still choose the wireless just for the fun factor. Most of the recreational singers prefer the cheapo, again for the fun factor. Some do notice a difference in sound and a few prefer to sound better but most say they don't care that much and would rather be able to have the mobility. Again--it is a small place with a postage stamp stage in the corner not visable to the entire bar so some like to get out in the middle and sing to everyone--diferent situation from trying to keep the focus onto a stage area.

7. It is probably still more cost effective to buy a good wireless and have it last a decade to constantly replacing cheap ones. Yet ours are on year two and aren't a bad deal for entry level and the situation you describe.

8. Battery use--these things go through a 9 volt a show or two on Dollar Store batteries and a little longer on expensive batteries. But batteries will be an expense with these and if you live in a state that requires recycling, you will have a big heavy pile quickly. We sent for some rechargables that were recommended as actually working on a DJ forum but they aren't here yet so don't know if they fit in the casings or how long they would last.

9. You will lose prestige, possibly. I want to upgrade to the AKGs for that reason and for the battery reason. But really, we have gotten good use out of our set for the situation you describe and as long as we have a good mic available for people, I no longer feel guilty about it. Also, I once saw them advertised at Target on line for $29.99. If you could get them at that price, it might be worth the experiment.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:53 am 
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leopard lizard @ Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:43 am wrote:
8. Battery use--these things go through a 9 volt a show or two on Dollar Store batteries and a little longer on expensive batteries. But batteries will be an expense with these and if you live in a state that requires recycling, you will have a big heavy pile quickly. We sent for some rechargables that were recommended as actually working on a DJ forum but they aren't here yet so don't know if they fit in the casings or how long they would last.


For those that have mics that use AA's, I have had excellent luck with these:
http://www.batteryjunction.com/tpeh-taa2700.html

I bought 8 over a year ago and rotate them. I don't know exactly how long they last, because they have never gone dead on me, even when I have two shows back to back on a Saturday. I see they make a 9Volt version as well.

I was burning through batteries, using four every show and with these, saved a TON of money.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:03 am 
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That is where we ordered our 9 volt rechargables from last March. They had a particular brand that some DJs said actually held a charge strong enough for mics. I guess rechargable 9 volts are iffier to use than the AAs? Anyway, they had a fire in their warehouse so said there would be a delay in shipping. Still waiting. I keep meaning to ask them how it is coming along but then I keep not wanting to spend the money at the same time.......


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:28 am 
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Cheese, I've tried the rechargeable 9V route with a couple of different manu's, always the same issue. They work great and I get around 8 hours of continuous singing time out of them when they're new. However, after a couple re-charges they lose that capacity and after about 6-8 charges they barely make it through a four hour show. If you decide to try your luck and actually do find a quality version, please let us know, but my success rate has been a big fat zero.

Liz, a couple things. First, I wouldn't buy anything for your rig because you feel pressured by the folks here. Use what works for you and what makes sense for your budget. I don't think you lose any prestige by doing so and even if you did, I wouldn't worry about it as long as your singers are happy.

As far as compression, it's not really a feature in this case but rather a technological implementation that all wireless microphones and instrument packs have called Companding. To put it in understandable terms, the "bandwidth" of the wireless signal does not have the capacity to carry the full dynamic range (difference between the quietest and loudest levels) of a vocal signal in real-time without introducing RF noise. So what they do is compress the signal at the transmitter (microphone, instrument pack, whatever) thereby reducing that dynamic range for transmission. The receiver then in turn has an Expander that attempts to revive that dynamic range. So compressing plus expanding = companding. This process helps reduce the noise introduced through the RF transmission and ensure a clean reproduction of the input.

So aside from the actual microphone cartridge itself, this is probably the biggest differentiator between different levels of wireless products. In lesser quality models, the effects of this companding can be heard very clearly in the vocals or instrument sounds. The edges of the audio envelope of sounds, words and phrases becomes less distinct creating an almost muddy type of audio (and one you can't simply EQ out). Gaining separation between sounds and providing the vocals or instrument with their own sonic space becomes difficult if not impossible to achieve. Higher quality mics employ better companding designs, produced in better factories with higher quality components that meet more strict tolerances and quality assurance requirements. The result is a far more transparent application of the companding process that results in little to no audible effects.

Hopefully that makes sense and helps you understand a little better what's going on.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:40 am 
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Hey Letitrip..

Did you try Li-ion batteries?

The 9V Lithium Ion / Lithium Polymer Rechargeable Batteries are rated at around 500mAh, significantly more ommph than your garden variety NiCad 9v rechargable.. and unlike NiCads that can develop a 'memory' (especially in high draw devices) the Li-Ions are usually good for several thousand charge cycles.

Sure they're more expensive.. i've seen 'em on eBay for a 2 pack with charger for around $60.. if you consider i'm always forgetting to buy 9volts until i'm on my way to the show and I end up paying gas station prices for a 2 pack of alkaline batteries ($5 to $7 for a 2 pack) spending $60 and not having to buy batteries for a couple years sounds like a solid investment.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:01 am 
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Leopard, after reading your post, I'm sure this is the best way for me to go. As far as losing prestige, I still have the sm58 (wired) available to use if anyone wants to use them. It's simply THEIR choice as to what is more important. Topher, 20.00 is a small price to pay to get rid of someone for abusing my equipment. If they break the mic, they're DONE, FINITO, they sing no more. That's also the reason that I won't be upgrading to a better wireless mic. I'm giving them options, take it or leave it. I know the abusers will choose the wireless, so that will protect the good mics for the more appreciative customers. Letitrip, would I still use the compressor on this channel, or not? It's the 4 channel Behringer. Also, I use xlr connections for all of my mics, can I put a 1/4" to xlr adapter on the cord going into the mixer? More for uniformity, than for functionality, as the 1/4 should work the same as the xlr right?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:08 am 
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srnitynow @ Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:01 pm wrote:
Also, I use xlr connections for all of my mics, can I put a 1/4" to xlr adapter on the cord going into the mixer? More for uniformity, than for functionality, as the 1/4 should work the same as the xlr right?


Difference between 1/4 inch and XLR is balanced/unbalanced, and most boards have a 1/4 inch jack and an XLR jack for each of the mic channels.

A standard XLR to 1/4 inch adapter works just as well if you dont have a 1/4" jack on your mic channels.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:10 am 
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srnitynow @ Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:01 pm wrote:
Letitrip, would I still use the compressor on this channel, or not? It's the 4 channel Behringer. Also, I use xlr connections for all of my mics, can I put a 1/4" to xlr adapter on the cord going into the mixer? More for uniformity, than for functionality, as the 1/4 should work the same as the xlr right?


Regarding the compressor, yes, you'd still want to run it on that channel. The companding does not provide you with a built in compressor. In theory after compressing and then expanding the signal should be the same on the output end as it was entering the mic. Therefore you still want to compress.

With regard to the 1/4" to XLR conversion, my recommendation is no, don't use a simple adapter. The 1/4" plug is sending a line level signal, your XLR input on the mixer is expecting mic level. I'm not sure you'd be able to cut the signal enough to keep it usable. Instead you'd be better off either just simply running it into the 1/4" input (no real reason not to) or if you really want XLR, use a D/I to convert it.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:15 am 
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Letitrip--thank you for a repeat of your explanation. I vaguely remembered it but I am not the technological one of our team. It also sort of explains why many of our singers, including myself, prefer the Nadys after trying both. The muddy thing sort of slurs things so that it sounds like you are doing a bit better than you are. I am NOT the singer of our team, either, but just fill in if we start with a tiny rotation, etc. So I don't have pro skills in that dept. But I often feel like I can just think of a note and the Nadys put it right out there. If I use the Audix, I have to be very conscious of how I hold it and it seems to amplfy every waiver in my voice, etc. so breath control is a must. In other words, it requires a learning curve to sound good on it while the Nadys give a false sense of security which may be why the average singer goes back to them after trying the Audix.

On the other hand, we have a few GODD singers who know how to use a mic and find the Audix to be a huge step forward in allowing them to do with their voices what they want to do. I know our Blues singer was trying to explain it to me but "more headroom" was all I remember.

I don't mind keeping the Nadys for our dive show but the more we do this, the more I start to hear as far as sound and I would like to take a step up toward playing some better places. The first year I was very intimidated by people on this forum saying they would walk out of a show if this was done or not done. But suddenly I realized you can't run your show for someone who lives across the country who won't ever be there and you have to play to who you have. But still nothing wrong with wanting to improve and expand your horizons as you get more experience.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:26 am 
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theCheese @ Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:40 pm wrote:
Hey Letitrip..Did you try Li-ion batteries?


Yep, the last set I bought were Li-ion and had all the specs to lead me to believe they'd work great. No such luck.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:46 am 
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letitrip @ Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:26 pm wrote:
theCheese @ Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:40 pm wrote:
Hey Letitrip..Did you try Li-ion batteries?


Yep, the last set I bought were Li-ion and had all the specs to lead me to believe they'd work great. No such luck.


If you could post the make/model of the Li-Ion batteries you tried, that would be great. I wanted to do a little more research on the different varieties before pulling the trigger on a set.. and if you've already tried some that didn't cut it.. well.. no sense in trying the same set twice.

Haha.. speaking of the Nady.. I gotta pick up a fresh set of batteries tonight for my sonic showdown with the sewer pipe singer from the other thread!


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These type of cheap wireless mics work much better for higher voices. They are really lousy for voices like mine, with lots of low-end. But if the singer has lots of dynamic range, prepare for distortion.

I really think you'd be better off to buy a single AKG WMS40 for $200 or so. If the cheap ones each chew a $2.00 battery every show, then it will take less than 40 shows before you are ahead of the game. The WMS40 uses a 30 cent battery and it lasts 4 or 5 shows, and it sounds better and is very durable.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:55 pm 
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Mckyj, you're missing the whole point of me getting these mics. If I wanted to put a 200.00 mic into these certain peoples hand, I'd be better off just letting them ruin my sm58's. The whole point of getting these mics is to give them to the "knuckle heads" that feel compelled to just act like a fool with a mic in their hand. I figure my investment in that isn't worth more than a 20.00 mic. These people could care less about "low end", or distortion, or anything else about singing. Their whole purpose is to try and be funny, or act like a jerk. Like I've said, if they REALLY want to sing, they can use the (wired) sm58's.

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The Nady DUO mics really don't sound that bad at all.. even after they've had the (@$%&#!) beaten out of them for over a year.

I'll be posting audio samples of a well, well road worn one tomorrow.

Say that a few times fast.. haha "well, well road worn one"

I dunno where they come up with this BS about they work better for high voices? What?

I tell you what.. if a person could find a rubberized kind of sleeve to slide the NADY DUO mic into, to help absorb the shock when they get dropped, and replace the windscrean with something a bit heavier duty, they'd be awesome mics at three times the price.


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