Karaoke Forums

So here's the situation. I went out of the way to support a new KJ at one of her gigs. She's new the being a KJ but I've been to her gigs before and she's done a good job with getting her equipment but is still tuning in her system for the locations. To boot she hasn't had much training in rotation management and the board and people and rotation sometimes results is a bit of confusion. I understand all this and have helped her with some concepts and items on her board and simply want her to succeed.

I went way out of my way to go to a show for her since she pinged me and told me she was gonna lose it if she didn't have a good showing that night. I grabbed a friend and we went the 30 minutes out there to support and do some singing. We got there just before she started and watched a lot of the folks arrive. There were several people we knew there and it was a fun crowd.

It's a 3 hour show and about half way in a new singer, Singer X, put his name in. She got him up to sing pretty quick, not a problem, small crowd good people. I get to sing again, my buddy gets to sing twice in the next 40 minutes and I notice that Singer X is up for his third time. I also notice that another singer, Singer Y, hasn't sung since singer X did his first song.

I sent her a polite text letting her know, "Singer X has sung 3 times since Singer Y sang. A good general rule for rotation is no singer sees another singer sing more than once before they sing again." That was the max for a single text so I send it and quickly follow it up with, "I lost more singers to rotation issues early on than any other item. Just giving you some rotation-fu and hope you can benefit from some experience."

She pretty much got pissed at me for pointing this out. Telling me I was wrong. I apologized and told her I didn't mean any insult. She told me she has the slips and can prove I'm wrong. I wasn't interested in being right, I didn't even really care if Singer Y sang at all; I just wanted her to know the importance of rotation management.

When we were leaving my buddy went up to say good night and she told him that I was wrong about how she ran the rotation. He told her "Gryf's right. I noticed it too." And she asked him why we were attacking her. I told her goodnight and that I didn't mean to offend and she told me, "It's alright. I'm right, you're wrong. and I have the proof right here. Singer Y sang just as much as Singer X. You weren't here when Singer X started." I told her I had been there since before she started and singer Y didn't show up until halfway through and Singer X should have at least 2 more songs than Singer Y for a 8 person rotation.

I apologized again and left. I really just want to see her succeed and give her a little advice. I am pretty sure that was the last of her shows I'm going to.

Was I wrong in saying something? Lay it on me, I can take it.

I don't think so. She's worried about losing her show and you provided an honest assessment. The advice was free. I'm surprised Singer Y stuck it out that long. Maybe the rum and cokes were really good.

Sounds like she deserves to lose her show.

There is no excuse for having a screwed up rotation -- either you want to be fair and so you organize your slips (or use the computer) or you don't care about being fair, and you favor people, or don't even bother spending the time to be organized about it.

EDIT: Besides that, you basically got used as a chair-filler. She clearly did not want your suggestions or advice, she just wanted you to come have some drinks and help her keep her gig. Why bother helping someone with an attitude like the one you've described?

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

In her defense, maybe singer y didn't put in their next song until after singer x sang his/her song. Not every singer puts up more than one slip at a time. That's the only explanation that holds any water if she was truly running a fair rotation. You weren't standing behind her watching her rotation were you? Did you see Y hand more than one slip to her?

Now if I am wrong then yes she deserves to lose her show.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

I attend other kj's shows, and never give advice unless asked. I may observe problems that they are having, but I use that to improve on MY skills. I firmly believe in supporting other shows, and having other hosts coming to my show, but only expect them to give me advice if I ask. If anything, when I'm at someone elses show, and see something I like, and would like to incorporate that into my show, I'll ask them politely if they would mind telling me how they did the certain thing. Other than that, I'm just another person in the rotation.

Rosario

Ditto

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Music speaks to the heart in ways words cannot express.

I go to other shows, but I don't do anything a regular singer doesn't do. I say hi, sign up, wait my turn, and sing my songs. If the KJ knows me we might have a drink and talk shop; if not, I don't tell them I'm a KJ, I just drink and sing.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

Just like most of the KJs here....the average KJ thinks that they are doing everything right already and that they are also using the very best karaoke gear available. They resent being told that there might be a better way of doing things....especially when it comes to their rotation policy. Some KJs even hate being told that they should provide a CDG player for the ocassional singer who might bring in their own discs. In their minds, they think that they are already running the perfect show. Even this newbie is oblivious to the fact that she is skipping people and still will defend her rotation at the expense of losing customers and possibly the gig itself because of it.

Much like Jeff, when I go to other KJ's shows on a whim, I don't do anything out of the ordinary that any other singer wouldn't do. I don't identify myself as a KJ or audio engineer, I just find the songs I want to sing, sign up and sing the night away. I generally will not approach another KJ about their rig with one exception. There was one guy who when we arrived we could tell was pretty inexperienced. He was having trouble with feedback and I could see he was really struggling to figure out how to fix it (he just kept turning down the mic in the house mix, it was feeding back through the monitor). So I did go up to him and politely asked him if he wouldn't mind if I made a suggestion or two on how to correct it. Told him what the offending frequency was, told him he should take it out on the channel EQ for that mic (since he didn't have a separate EQ for the monitor) and all was good and he was happy.

Now that all said, if a fellow KJ who knew I was a KJ too invited me to their show on the pretense in the original situation here, I'd have no problem offering suggestions. You asked for my help when you said you were afraid of the losing the show. If you know who I am and what I do then you understand my experience. From what you describe gryf, it sounds like you were polite and respectful. That's all you can do. Although I'd have probably left it alone after the first conversation, too bad you friend re-opened the debate. The only other thing I would do differently is ask leading questions rather than just coming out and saying you're being unfair to singer Y. Ask questions about who has sung and what the rotation is that will lead her to realize the issue if there is one. That's the best way and keeps her from going on the defensive. Just a thought.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

I agree here I had this same thing happen to me.... I was going thru my rotation and singer R had no songs up so I bypass him rotation comes back around and R still has no songs up. So R's friend screems from across the bar to let me know that I am skipping him so I tell them that he has no more songs up. They then attack me saying that I was throwing his slips away.
If that was the case with her then I stand behind her but not knowing the slip situation I cant really add anything else here.

If that was the case the said Kj would have use it for her defense, and OP would have understood why the rotation was, the way it was.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

She could have meant that defense when she offered to prove she hadn't skipped anyone. That said I run a proactive rotation where I will make sure that the person in question really wants to be skipped due to lack of songs. They don't get pressured to sing and I accept the responses of not now or I don't feel like singing another as answers.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

When that happens to me in my rotation, if a singer doesn't have any songs in at their time to sing, I will ask them if they have another song in mind at that time, and I will do it so EVERYONE hears me asking (over the mic) , if they say yes, we are all golden, if they say "not at this moment" , then I will say over the mic, "find one for your next turn then". That way everybody knows that I am at least giving them the opportunity to sing. My rotation is pretty solid, nobody gets skipped and nobody feels left out.

I go to other KJ shows now and then, but not often.. and I usually end up going when i'm with a group of friends.. it's nice to be on the other side of the table now and then.

When i'm at another persons show, it's their show. I never identify myself as a DJ/KJ and I certainly wouldn't presume to tell them how to run their show or critique their methods.

Did this person ask for your help, or did you just take it upon yourself to be their mentor?

In your original post, you don't say she asked for your guidance or suggestions.. just that she asked you to come out because she was having trouble filling the venue.

I regularly get peoples cell numbers at shows and shoot them messages letting them know where i'll be on certain nights, especially at newer venues where the crowds are thin.. and from what I read in your original post, that's what it sounds like happened here.

You probably met this woman at one of her shows.. mentioned you did karaoke, too.. she mentioned she was new to it, you exchanged contact info. She wanted your info mostly to build a database of singers to call out on slow venues.

You 'go out of your way' (you mentioned that at least twice in your original post) to come to her show.. then critique it.. then when she disagrees, you argue with her about it.

And why shouldn't you? That ungrateful brat. You went out of your way to help her, to show her the ropes.. she should be kissing your feet! Buying you drinks! Thanking you for bestowing upon her your wealth of knowledge.

Don't offer someone advice unless they specifically ask for it.. and if they decide your advice is hogwash.. well.. then that's their call. You don't argue with them about it.

Ya know, I agree with you on your assessment here Cheese. From the wording of the post, it looks like he might have overstepped his bounds just a wee bit here. Only give advice when asked, otherwise it can be taken as something that it might not have been meant to be. IMHO, good call

I guess I misunderstood the original post. I thought the OP had been asked for advice in the past and had a sort of mentor relationship with this host. If not then I guess I have to agree with others. Most people don't appreciate unsolicited advice.

On the other hand, if you have been in a mentoring relationship with her then I don't see anything wrong with what you did. From now on though, I would confine the advice and help to specific questions she has in areas where she won't take your remarks personally.

way to get it out all in one post !


Are there any good kj's left ?

Without knowing all the facts (both sides ) I don't think it's fair to rush to judgement of this KJ. You did the right thing in mentioning it to her , that's all you could do.

To answer your question... NO I'll never offer advice unless I know the person or were specifically asked my opinion. Otherwise you're just asking for trouble ...look what happens here

You give someone advice and 20 people tell you how wrong you are ....but NO ONE gives the advice themselves ....they just get off by telling you --you were wrong

The problem with monitoring a KJ's rotation is you're missing a few elements to the equation, in particular, the order and frequency of submitted songs by a particular singer.

I have some singers walk up with 5 or more songs written on the back of a single slip.. other times they'll pass in multiple slips at once.. other times, they'll only hand in one, and then hand in their next slip when they come up to sing.

Sometimes a singer will bring up a slip but tell me, "I don't want to sing right away" or words to that effect. Or they'll tell me for whatever reason they want to bump their turn the next rotation because they'll be out on the patio, or whatever.

Does simply handing in one slip lock you into a place in the rotation, and each subsequent slip turned in puts you in that spot? If the slip is turned in after that missed turn, do you make another rotation, or do you back up to give them their song?

Several variables in the equation that the observer from the crowd simply doesn't know. Which is why, generally speaking, it's best not to get too worked up over strict singer rotation.

[quote="BruceFan4Life @ Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:56 am"]Just like most of the KJs here....the average KJ thinks that they are doing everything right already and that they are also using the very best karaoke gear available. They resent being told that there might be a better way of doing things....especially when it comes to their rotation policy. Some KJs even hate being told that they should provide a CDG player for the ocassional singer who might bring in their own discs. In their minds, they think that they are already running the perfect show. Even this newbie is oblivious to the fact that she is skipping people and still will defend her rotation at


???
Was this an invite to attack the entire group? Stick to the story.

There was nothing wrong with what the poster did. Keep in mind, it wasn't a conventional " I don't him/her, he/she doesn't know me. She was rude and assuming the story has all the facts, it was handled professionally. If that is the type of attitude she will be using, she won't last long>

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