Karaoke Forums

Ditto. Here here! I agree. Mcky was dead on with this.

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

So did a decent list of quality mics come out of this or are we stuck on how stupid it is to go cheap?

I think that everyone agrees that the pro-head Shure (SM58 and higher) and Sennheiser mics even (835 head or better) at the entry level are good.

The next tier candidates that come out are the:

Shure PG288/PG58 $550 for 2 PROS: Decent sound, good durability, diversity CONS: 9V battery, some handling noise

AKG WMS40 $300 for 2 PROS: Price, 5 or more shows on one AA, decent sound, good durability CONS: no diversity, some handling noise

Line 6 XDR255 $300 for one PROS: Audix OM3 head, diversity CONS: A bit more expensive, average battery life, no reviews from KF regulars

Carvin UX16-MC $219 for one PROS: Very good sound, excellent battery life, solidly built, diversity CONS: No known experience with longtime use

Then you have cheap, which I won't go into.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

The Carvin is slightly more expensive? It's the cheapest on your list of 4?? But it's actually $229.
My review is that it sounded pretty damn good, little handling noise, no interference. Compared side by side with my Shure SM58 PGX system & it actually had a slightly better high end.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

The WMS40 is $150 per channel, so slightly more expensive there. But I will remove that, as it is cheaper than the Shure and than the Line 6. As for the price, the other day it was on special for $219.00. Though then it went out of stock, and now is back up to $229.00.


I agree, though I don't have as good an ear as you. It just sounded excellent for my voice, and could be a bit better than my SM58 PGX. But I actually meant from people who had used it long term...though I might get that information next time I go to the venue which has been using it for nearly a year.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Thanks guys. I am looking into new mics for a mobile setup so I can do a second show without hassling a good install at my current venue.

Would have never thought of Carvin for mics. Good information.

Is it time for this again already?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33QPLbQi9FI

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

I agree to a point. That being that I had a very nervous singer some years ago who, when finished, heavily dropped her mic-controlling arm in relief that she had made it through the song. In doing so, she made a very positive contact with butt end of my wireless SM58 and the wall she was tightly backed up against. Well, this resulted in somehow shorting something internally which manifested in a significantly decreased battery life. I went from approximately 12 Hours (2-3 shows worth) to 2 hours (half a show). It ended up costing me $60 + shipping to get it fixed. I have since had them dropped on a couple occasions with no ill effects.

Since the 700mhz change. I was forced to retire my two fixed frequency SM58s and replace them with ElectroVoice multi frequency wireless mics in the A & G bands. Since then, I've had nothing but positive feedback (and I don't mean between the mic and speaker ) from my singers.

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EveningStar Entertainment & Events
JR & Michele LaPorte
Peoria, AZ

There are 2 parts to any wireless system - the wireless transmission piece and the microphone element.

As you increase more channels or take other steps to avoid interference the cost of the wireless transmission goes up.

As you put a better and better element on the microphone the cost goes up.

My main wireless microphones are Audio Technica 2000, 3000, and 4000 series microphones.

For an entry level the AT 2000 is a decent microphone. There are only 10 frequencies, but it's a good entry level microphone with prices in the $200-$250 range (perhaps a little less).

The AT 3000 series is better. 200 frequencies for the older model, over 1000 on the new. 2 different microphone elements are available and the sound is quite good but carries a cost of about $500.

The AT4000 series I have is the hyper-cardiod Artist Elite Condensor microphone. This microphone ROCKS. It's head and shoulders above any other wireless microphone I've EVER used - and I've used a LOT of them over the years. I've handed this to people and on more than one occasion when they hand it back they mention the quality. Not cheap at about $900 each though.

Be careful with hyper-cardiod microphones though - if you have 'belt singers' (where they hold the microphone at their waist) they won't pick them up.


But you mentioned feedback being a problem. Since I have the Bose L1 Model I's myself, I almost never have that issue. If I had to guess, the problem resides in a gain structure problem more so than the wireless microphones you're using. Remember, there are 3 gains for a wireless microphone - one on the handheld, one on the base, and another at the mixer.

I would argue there are far more, but since it appears you're only referring to the transmitter (the mic you hold in your hand for instance), I'd argue there are actually three main components, the microphone cartridge, the processor and the RF Transmitter. The cartridge handles the actual conversion of sound waves to electrical voltage. This is the first stage where different options can affect quality and therefore price. The processor stage is where the electrical signal is "processed" to prepare it for transmission. The signal is usually compressed and limited to some degree and the better the mic (and usually more expensive the mic) the better this stage performs. Then there is the RF Transmitter stage which actually handles transmitting the signal via radio waves. Cheaper options as you mentioned here will have capability for fewer channels.

What you've totally discounted that is a huge part of the wireless "system" is the receiver. There are many options on this end that also affect quality and therefore pricing. Number of channels supported, diversity antennas, the expanding stage (essentially "uncompressing" the received signal, this is a hugely important area where quality is often lost), even op-amps in the output stage can all be important factors.

In the end, all this is moot. We can argue specs and dollars and cents until we're blue in the face and it means nothing. What matters is what you hear. They typical lay person is more apt to simply dismiss what they consider to be subtle differences between mics. A person who regularly listens to and is responsible for the audio quality of the mics, will find even subtle differences to be significant and worth correcting.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

@karaokemeiste: welcome back, been a long time..

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Letitrip, I think the last paragraph of your post could have been used and should be used in the future when there is a discussion of mics, (quality, price, etc.). Most of the people we are in contact with doing karaoke are what you refer to as the "lay" person. They may hear a slight difference, but in the end, it really isn't that important to them. Again, very well put.

Rosario
Serenity Now Karaoke

For the layperson, explaining it as I did helps them to make choices in at least a semi-informed manner.

The microphone element picks up the voice. Choice of element, be it dynamic/condensor, a specific pickup pattern, ability to handle loud sounds, etc plays a factor in what it sounds like.

Once you have the sound into the system - the transmission from the handheld/bodypack to the receiver is the next major factor. From the numbers of channels, what part of the frequency spectrum is being used, bandwidth used, antenna choices, and many other factors.

For the person not able to to delve into the specifics, it gives them an idea of why what appears to be identical microphone systems has a $300 price switch by changing just the microphone. Or why two different systems, both using the same 'microphone' are $500 apart in price.

Sure, we can get into the specifics, but I've found that 90%+ of the people out there get confused, just don't care, or misunderstand what the specifics mean. In short, they don't have the background in electronic theory, sound reinforcement, etc to comprehend what's being presented.


On a side note, be careful about what microphones you purchase. The FCC is changing the rules again - this time they're requiring narrowbanding for anything between 150-174 MHz and 421-512 MHz (this spectrum isn't 'normally' used for microphones though). It goes into effect January 1, 2013. Based on this change, I wouldn't be surprised if they implement a narrow banding requirement for white space devices at some point in the near future (the majority of wireless microphones work in the white space between TV stations, etc).

The part I rarely hear discussed is the consistency of performance, particularly in the area of off-axis response. Where poor-quality mics suffer the most, in my opinion, is not in the sound quality. It's inferior, to be sure, but if it were reliably inferior to only that degree they would be fine.

But the poor-quality mics sound slightly worse on their best days. In more normal operation, you rotate them 180 degrees and experience dropouts. You hold one of a pair at a certain distance and get virtually no response, you hold another at that same distance and get distortion.

With better microphones, you can rotate the transmitter 360 degrees in one axis, and 90 degrees in the other axis, and get consistent response when you do so. That is my big problem with poor-quality mics like the Nady, Gemini, Pyle, or low-end Vocopro.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I don't totally disagree with you. However, it's also important that someone who's going to purchase one of the mics know that there are other factors that will directly impact the quality of their mic, even if they don't understand what they are or what they mean. For instance, someone debating between a Shrue PGX with a Beta58 and a Shure SLX Beta58 by the logic above would assume they're identical except that the SLX has more channels. In reality this is not true at all.

Even if you don't understand or care what the differences are, it is important to know they exist. Personally, I tend to be a very informed consumer. I research the living crap out of just about everything before I buy it. The result is I rarely am negatively surprised by anything I buy. If you're going to make a $300-800 purchase, why would you not spend the time getting up to speed on what your purchase is buying you and what you're giving up by saving $200?

Where you make the assumption that people don't care about these specs, I make the assumption that people would care (at least a little) if they knew. So I'm the type that will always put all the information out there and let them decide for themselves what they can use and what is just too over their head to care about.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

There are many, many more things that we could talk about on microphones. A/D conversion, 'coloring', processing, etc... but these are minor compared to the other factors - particularly those that mckyj57 brought up. Things like off axis response, dB limits (for the 'screamers'), sensitivity, handling noise are all things that will have a greater impact on a microphones suitability for a karaoke show than what processing is used on the signal before/after transmission.

If I was looking for a touring microphone for a national act, I'd be all over the specs you mentioned and testing the hell out of microphones to find just the 'right' ones for each person.

But in a bar setting, where the noise floor is already pretty high, coupled with the alcohol deafness, and other factors, subtle differences in microphone performance simply play such a small role in the show that it's not always worth the pain of going that deep.

90%+ of the karaoke shows I've been to - from Alaska to Florida and plenty in between - the patrons could care less about the microphone as long as it 'worked' and was 'ok'. They didn't care if they were handed an Audio Technica Artist Elite T6100 Hypercardiod condensor microphone - the same used for the Grammy's and by many touring acts, or a VocoPro handheld off a 5805 set. In short, the untrained listener in the above environment isn't going to always know if they even tried - particularly if adjustments are made at the board to compensate for the differences.

Yes, the specs and details are important if you're dropping a small fortune. But in the sub $300 price range does it matter? Chances are you're cutting a LOT of other corners that factor into the quality more than the subtleties.

But hey, that's just how I see it....

On the same token, that's why I didn't buy the 5000 series - the microphones and wireless electronics are identical - but the 5000 has the ability to do a lot of features that are needed for a touring act, or large installation. Not for the Mobile DJ...


Jian: It's good to be back... I stopped doing karoake for a long time... and just happened to be doing a karaoke show for a local charity and thought I'd pop back in for a bit.

Again I don't disagree with your sentiments, but you're also poo-pooing some pretty significant factors. Companding is a big factor in the performance of a wireless microphone. And the difference in technology between a $50 dual set and a $300 PGX is huge. It affects everything from coloration to gain before feedback. When we talk off-axis response levels, how this is handled through the transmission is very important and directly impacted by this process. In the wireless world it's not just about the cartridge and pickup pattern anymore but how that interacts with the other stages of the system. Companding is not a subtly, it leads directly to clarity or lack there of. Even the lay-est of lay person is gonna notice when they can't understand what the singer is singing. They won't know the details of why, but they'll know they don't like it.

I also mentioned Diversity Antennas. HUGE factor that you've not included in your original "2 things". Your singers and spectators will notice when the RF drops out or you get multi-path interference. This has nothing to do with the transmitter and everything to do with the receiver. In fact I'll dare say this is more important than frequency agility. I can buy non-agile mics that operate in different frequency bands, but if the receiver is suffering from reception issues related to a dedicated antenna, my show goes in the toilet fast.

Sorry I see the value in trying to make things easier for people to evaluate and compare but at the end of the day, picking a mic is NOT an easy process. That's why we have so many models from so many manufacturers.

*EDIT* And unless you're using one of the very few new digital mics (which I'm not sure fit into your sub $300 range) there is no A/D conversion.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

The A/D conversion was in reference to the options available in the wireless industry as a whole.

As for the diversity comment - I haven't seen a wireless without it in quite some time. While I'm sure that there are plenty of them out there - I haven't seen one from a reputable manufacturer with a price over $200 in recent years - although I have to admit, I haven't really looked. I suppose the VHF models may fall into that category, but the UHF units I've seen haven't.

Sure, we can talk about all the different issues for people to examine.... and they can get so snowed into the details they end up with paralysis by analysis. In all honesty, I normally just recommend they go out and rent a set and try it before they buy if they can. If not, go to a lot of shows, and try them out. When you find one you like, ask them what it is. Putting hands on does more to give you an idea of what you're getting than any amount of specs....


As for companding, it will become more important as they look into narrow banding microphones.... but most people have no idea what it is, how it impacts the sound or anything else. Even if you tell them, unless they hear it side by side, they might never realize the difference. I've seen this first hand when demo'ing speakers for people. You let them listen to one set, and then another. Even if they A/B the speakers they often mistake volume for 'clarity'. The speakers bought most often at a store are the ones mounted at ear level.... a shame but true.

I should point out that I'm not against going in detail - but I'm not a fan of always jumping to the technical details if someone isn't going to be able to understand or put the information to use. If they do - GREAT! Otherwise, I just give them some basics... it's taken me a long time to get here... but the 'brain dump' posts I've made before just didn't help most people...

Probably the best possible advice in this realm. As I said before and it seems you agree, there is no better test than the one you conduct with your own ears. Again, the last thing I want to do is send someone into the paralysis by analysis realm, I agree that's easy to do. I don't expect people to make a decision based on the specs (which it today's world of buying everything online, many are forced to do), just want them to understand that it might be worth listening to that one that costs $150 more because there are other factors at play that may result it in sounding much better.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

I did visit that venue, and they have had one of the Carvin UX16 wireless mics for 15 months with no problem, and one more for 6 months with no problem. Each has been dropped multiple times.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.