Karaoke Forums

The Cheese seems to think that he has created a better mouse trap. If he catches more mice his way and the owner of the Mouse Bar is happy; more power to him. Personally, this mouse wouldn't appreciate the Cheese deciding whose 5 minutes were more important or whose song is worth singing in it's proper time slot. I don't have to whine about it. I just go to another Mouse Bar and buy my beer & cheese stix there.

If the service is questionable, there is no reason to storm out vowing never to return when you know there is a good possibility you may actually only have to wait 6 months for the KJ to be replaced.

If I were a KJ, I would think that constantly tweaking the rotation would be a headache, making a chore out of a job. Not only that, but I think it may develop unrealistic expectations for the show from both the singer's and the nonsinging customer's perspectives. If you group all the certain songs together it will be just that much more of a shock when the more different song is finally sung. The guy sitting at the bar who has heard five rock songs now hears a country ballad and decides to call a taxi, whereas if the songs were more random, he might be more willing to sit through something he wasn't as familiar with. Why not just take the rotation as it is, and use your hosting skills to make the most of that?

My position EXACTLY. Couldn't have said it better.

The singer is the final buyer therefore they are the customer/patron. I do respect the Venue and it's employees but the final reality is that without the singers/cutomer the venue would not survive. I have one venue that hates Karaoke but without the singer/customer they would have an empty bar and it is hard to pay the bills without paying customers. I really is an evil circle we sometimes work in.

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Bruce - I agree, if advertised starting is 9PM the the show should start on time. Meaning the KJ should welcome singers, sing their OPENING SONG if they choose make announcements and get the ball rolling etc. -- No it's not right to start the show 1 hour later. ..Thats BAD

But what it seems we have are some people that if the show starts at 9:05 or the 1st singer gets called at 9:10 .... they're walking out and never coming back.

I guess if you're hanging on a noose 5 minutes is a long time ...but take a chill pill if you're out with friends having a drink (even if its water) and relaxing.

NO one is in favor of being a bad KJ and running a unfair rotation.
But as a KJ if I feel that it's in the best interest of the MAJORITY OF PAYING CUSTOMERS to hear somone sing SONG A instead of SONG B at that time I'll make a switch. It doesn't mean you can't sing song B ever ...you'll just have to wait a few extra minutes. Now if you have to GO TO WORK or GO HOME TO A BABY SITTER or take care of one of lifes other responsibility thats the way it goes. The same can happen if one of the other KJ's slip a new singer in front of you. It's the same concept. If waiting or singing the one extra song is enough to make you never go back to a show ... personally I don't want that type of singer anyway.

It's important to understand that the non singers have a voice even on Karaoke Night ..... And from experiance I can tell you ....they don't like to hear the SAME BORING SLOW SONGS WEEK IN AND WEEK OUT. A good kj ...NO a GREAT KJ can read the crowd and make some slight revisions in the rotations to WAKE THINGS UP with a tweak of the rotation ...NO ONE IS SAYING the singer can't sing the song ever. Just have to wait maybe ..9 minutes.

I agree 110%. If you post a start time, thats when you start.. and the KJ should be set up at least a half hour BEFORE that start time to take any song request/slips so the show CAN start promptly at the start time.



The problem we have is that 'fair' is subjective.

Some folks, including myself, think it's 'fair' to put a new singer twards the top of the rotation, while others think that's 'unfair' because someone might have to wait a few minutes before their song starts.

Who's right? Well, nobody. Because 'fairness' is all a matter of perception.[/QUOTE]



I'm of the same opinion. Karaoke is, at least to me, supposed to be fun, relaxed, a good time hanging out with friends. It isn't a high stakes contest or to the death bloodsport. It's drunks singing into a microphone.

Some singers are great.. others are awful.. plenty of singers are somewhere in between. It's supposed to be FUN.

The people who having to wait an extra 5 minutes to sing their song are the anal retentive types I was talking about in one of my first posts here on this board.. and I don't want 'em at my show, either.[/QUOTE]



There are venues that run karaoke and have a crowd that DO want to hear the same songs week after week. OK.. maybe they don't actually WANT to hear them, but they don't really want to hear ANYONE but THEMSELVES.

They come to the bar with Karaoke just to hear themselves sing. They're so self absorbed that they don't care about anyone else, they're all about getting as many turns in on the mic as possible.

They don't want to hear DJ music or dance music played.. EVER.. unless someone is singing the karaoke version.

They don't want the KJ banter with the audience between songs. All this talk is burning precious seconds that could be better served letting someone sing!

They don't ever want to hear a 'double shot' or a 'two'fer' of one singer.. unless, of course, THEY'RE the singer.

The thought of something like "Kamikaze Karaoke" or "Karaoke Roulette" makes these types of singers vomit.

There absolutely are karaoke people like that. Many of them have tracks at home they sing to in their car or at home.

And there are plenty of clubs out there that cater specifically to that kind of karaoke singer.

But there are also a lot of people who are simply casual singers and just don't take it that seriously. People who don't mind if the new arrivals get bumped to the top of the rotation because they've already sang 3 times that night.

People who DO want to hear some booty shaking music here and there throughout the night so the girls can come up and dance.

There are clearly at least two distinct camps when it comes to Karaoke.. the Serious group, and the Casual group.

I, being a member of the Casual Group am guilty of dismissing the Serious Group as a bunch of Anal Retentive water sippers.. while the serious group is just as guilty for regarding the Causal Group as a bunch of no talent drunks spitting in microphones.

My intention for this thread was not to establish who was 'right' or 'wrong' when it came to methods for bringing up singers.. but just to get a feel for the different ways people do it.

The 'Numbered Table' idea was a new one I haven't heard yet... but I could already hear the grumblings from the Serious camp if a new arrival happened to slip into a low numbered table.

I probably wouldn't let anyone sit at my table so I could get to sing more often ;c)

In the end, it comes down to one thing and one thing only...

The perception of the patrons that the rotation is fair.

Whatever they decide is 'fair' - not you, not me, not the club owner - is what matters.


I run a strict first come, first served rotation. If you show up late, you go to the back of the line.

Why?

Because I used to go to shows that ran a 'list rotation' and I'd show up before start time so I could sing the most during a night. But here's the problem. As long as new people came in the door, I didn't get to sing again. They just kept adding them to the bottom of the rotation and as long as they didn't get to the bottom, they didn't start over.

If I'm going to a club, bringing friends, and we're drinking, eating and in general paying to be there for hours - why should the person that's hopping from club to club get to sing right away when they walk in? I've had wait times increase to the point that I gave up and left simply because we were near the end of the rotation with an hour left and a group of people walk in and put in slips - taking the remaining time allotted. As a result, the people who just walked in get to sing, but the people who have been there for hours supporting the bar get hosed. They were down the street at another bar all night building up the courage to come 'sing one'.


Likewise, if the rotation has been A, B, C all night and suddenly you change it to C, B, A to make it 'work' then singer A could think you've skipped them.


Because of the problems inherent in a rotation I run a strict cue rotation (Also called a 'sing one, bring one' rotation). You come in, you get at the back of the line at the bank, just like you do at my show. But here's the one thing I do that's slightly different- I leave myself in the rotation. If I want someone up 'faster' that's just walked in, I give up my slot, and give it to them. I add myself back at the end of the rotation at that point. That's the only exception. Even if I'm only 2-3 up from the bottom - it gets them up faster than putting them at the bottom.

Note: Even though I leave myself in the rotation, I don't normally sing if I have more than 3-4 singers.

All in all, if the singers don't think your rotation is fair - simply meaning whatever rules you apply, actually apply to everyone - then you can and will loose singers. THAT'S the biggest problem... claiming 'exceptions' to the rules...

However you opt to run your rotation as long as the singers understand it, accept it, and are happy with it - that's all that matters.

Well much to your disbelief, you can get a crowd fun, partying, serious singers that spend more than their fair share. But like I (and you said) there are two kinds of clubs, serious & casual - I agree with that. We don't get a whole lot of water sippers, but occasionally do & they get charged for them and any refill.
But yes they are very much watching the rotation and want it strict - aside from the inserted new singers. They just don't want their slips moved for any other reason.
Your bringing up no duplicated song sang throughout a night was MY rule as when I was a singer I hated hearing the same song over by others trying to outdo the other - that actually takes some of the fun out of it as others are trying to be better than someone else. Don't need that.

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I apologize for not reading every post, but I tried to read a lot of this thread.

I try to stick to a strict rotation because I have so many regulars and most everyone in the bar sings. My regulars know how the rotation works and would get very upset if I deviated. I pride myself on being fair to everyone. I find people appreciate being treated equally more than anything. No one wants to feel less of a singer by being bumped for a better singer or a different song. Most singers think they sing well and pick songs they think will get them praise. I'm not going to be the one to make them feel like they are less then someone else. Usually they are more apt to blame the karaoke host for playing favorites then to take a blow to their ego.

I try to make everyone feel special and important to to show. That is hard to do if your bumping them. People get angry if they think they've been skipped or unfairly moved down in rotation. Does an extra 5 minutes matter in the long run? Yes if it means you have unhappy patrons because you've made them feel less important.

People come to a karaoke to sing, so they are fixated on when they get their moment to shine. 5 minutes may not seem like a big deal, but I'll tell you with my experience if someone even mistakenly thinks they been skipped I'm hearing about it and they are not happy.

A Friday night for me is a 2 hour wait to sing. My regulars don't complain about the wait time because they know I'm being fair. It is seldom I ever get asked "When am I up" or "Did you skip me". It's less aggravation for me because I have a reputation of being fair and consistent.

My most stressful nights are nights I have a lot of newbies because they are so afraid they'll be skipped or bumped, so they ask a tons of questions. I find once I've earned their trust they stop asking when am I up.

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This where a good host will know when to cut off the rotation and start again at the top, still adding any newcomers again to the bottom. The difference is, the newcomers must now wait until the others have sung before they get to sing instead of singing right away, and the singers who have been waiting all night actually get a turn.
A good host will also know when to stop taking ANY slips and close the rotation down completely when they have enough to finish out the night. I will occasionally take more, with the provision that they probably won't get to sing them unless someone else drops out or leaves.

To the OP..

I personally would not go to a show based on how you are running your rotation. It's about your singers, NOT about you. In my opinion, I don't agree with the way you are handling things...not very professional at all. Who gives a s**t if the songs don't match a particular format you have in your head that you think should be.

Take care of your customers, not your ego.

Well with one or two minor exceptions due to equipment failure, the only times I have ever started late is when I didn`t have any singers at all.

-James

See I find this amazing, how does a thread like this and many of the others we've had lately, degenerate into such vehement personal attacks. It centers around the same couple posters who refuse to speak in politically correct terms and won't apologize for being who they are. Somehow that gets a bunch of other people all spun up and ready to draw blood.

Dude, Alan, seriously you need to back off about ten notches here. The OP is not operating his rotation this way because of his ego or because he feels his show is all about him. He's doing it because he believes this is the best way to keep buts in the chairs. He's addressing the entire group of patrons in a way that he feels will keep them all (singers and non-singers alike) from becoming bored or otherwise disenchanted with the show. If you don't agree with his approach fine, say so. But why is everybody so quick to judge everyone else on a personal level because they run their business in a different way.

I love watching the fireworks shows in these threads, I admit it. It's fun to see a buch of people arguing against each other over semantics when in reality they agree. I am fascinated by the ability of folks here to completely disregard facts and proclaim empirical knowledge based solely upon their own emotions. However, as much fun as it can be, lately it is growing somewhat tiresome, almost as boring as a forum with no disagreement at all would be. So guys, if you could see to maybe discussion issues a little more and insulting each other a little less, I'm sure others of us would be most appreciative.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Way off base ... Taken care of all the venues customers is priority. Which in many cases means interupting the BALLAD AFTER BALLAD AFTER SAD SONG which many karaoke shows consist of. ( could be any genre which is overdone from Country to RAP)

A KJ has to know his or her show. THEY'RE ALL NOT THE SAME. I guess if you have 20 singers all sitting there just waiting for there turn and don't care .... no change is required.

But if you have a show where non singers and casual singers come in and want to hear some variety ... a GREAT KJ will be able to read the crowd make some MINOR ROTATION ADJUSTMENTS... I SAID MINOR !!! and attempt to keep everyone happy . Not sure about the EGO thing it seems it's about trying to run a better show ????? Yeah I know ......
I can't wait 10 mins ...I follow Susie ..... Who cares about the other 50 people in the bar .....I'm never coming back ... I'm so important ...everybody wants to hear ME sing yadda yadda yadda

Wow. I don't think that it has a single thing to with his ego, and would argue that he IS taking care of his customers...ALL of them. Look, some KJ's don't care about the mood of the room. If you get four long death ballads in a row and people are leaving the bar in boredom to go somewhere more fun, oh well. So be it.

Well, that's not me either. I tweak the rotation constantly. Nothing drastic (or even perceptible IMO) but I do it and I am not ashamed. My show is just that...a show. It's entertainment. People come specifically because I am NOT like the tired, boring "name callers" down the street and the vibe in the room reflects that. There are just as many people in the bar (if not more) who come for the party as those who come to sing and I must please them ALL.

If someone doesn't like that, I totally understand and they are welcome to go to the next town over where the same guy has been monotonously calling out names for the same 12 people singing the same 20 songs for decades. Others want a party and that's what I bring. Different strokes.

Bazza is referencing an interesting distinction here and certainly one that leads to heated arguments because it's a philosophical debate that goes right to the core of what we do. The question is who are we really there to serve and entertain.

There are many of us here that have the view that our efforts and attention should be focused on the Karaoke singers. Afterall, we're there to provide Karaoke and our job is to fill the bar with as many Karaoke singers as we can. The happier we make our singers, the more singers will come back and tell their friends bringing in additional singers.

Then there's another approach which many of us subscribe to where we choose to focus on the full clientèle of the bar whether they're singers or not. This approach makes the assumption that the bar will never be 100% filled (or even 50% filled) with singers so we have to make the show entertaining for everyone. In the most extreme this can lead to things like dance music, rotation adjustments, etc.

So of course as with anything in life, these are the two extremes and there is a whole spectrum between them where any of us may align ourselves. Those that favor the first scenario see the second as doing things that are not purely Karaoke or not fair to the Karaoke singers who they believe should be the primary focus. Those that identify with the second scenario seem to regard the first as ignoring a large segment of the "bar population" if you will and thereby ignoring our responsibility as an entertainment provider to keep butts in the seats and money flowing.

Well the fact is folks, we're all wrong and we're all right. No matter what you do, someone is not going to be happy. Either a non-singer is going to long for the nights when there isn't karaoke at his favorite bar or a singer is going to go to a different karaoke night because they don't like yours. It's all specific to your situation and has nothing to do with ego, unprofessionalism or being a complete moron. It's about being able to read the business and know what your capabilities and that of the business are. If you think you can get enough Karaoke singers in the bar to make it a strong profit without the need for entertaining non-singers too, then you're going to lean more toward scenario A. If you're in a bar that holds 150 and you know you can't get more than 50 singers in there then you're going to lean more toward option B and try to bring the non-singers in with your show as well and play that balancing act. I know where I stand in this spectrum and I also know that it is somewhat different based on which gig I'm at. I certainly don't judge other people for chosing to do it differently and I don't know why anyone else would.

As I said before if you stick to a strategy of rotation, no matter what it is, and the singers know this, it is fair. It only becomes unfair if you treat different singers differently. It's not stupid to ignore the pleasure level of the non-singers if you're in a bar that holds 50 people and you've got 45 singers going. So how about everyone get off their high moral horses for a while here and focus on real issues like crappy mics, pirate hosts, and of course the ever popular how do I run Karaoke through this old stereo system my grandmother gave me?

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Here is the craziness that is the karaoke business .... We all strive for a 100% karaoke crowd. Full Rotations with lots of singers cause thats what everyone wants.

The singers want you to make them priority because it is karaoke night and they feel entitled to be special. The problem is once the SHOW gets TOO BIG and the FAIR ROTATION too long and the singers get to sing 1 or maybe 2 songs in 4 hours.....they complain and go to another less busier show and start the process all over.

and every show is unique...

Have to say this was absolutely one of the most impressive things I have seen (and still yet to replicate at my show). You can see the entire rotation of requested songs and your position with approximate wait time. If it is your first song your wait time is pretty much dead on. As new singers come in your subsequent wait times move a bit as the new singers get threaded into the rotation.

I had three songs requested and the wait time didn't go down for the last song for most of the night due to the new singers being added or other singers adding new requests into their spot in the rotation. One the night was 'sold out' my wait time then decreased in line with real time.

It's kind of hard to explain until you see it in practice but this was absolutely the most transparent rotation I've ever seen. I'm sure people still complain every noe and then but that's the business we're in.

J

Well said Tony and Jam.

Being open minded goes a long way. I could never imagine changing the rotation because of song selection, but that is because in my situation almost everyone sings. I have never worked in an environment where I've had more non-singers than singers, so my way of doing things may not work. Yes a good host will read his/her environment and do what works best for the majority. No host likes to deal with an unhappy crowd. We tend to conform to what people like. If a host is successful at keeping patrons coming in and happy, how they are doing things must work.

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