Karaoke Forums

I am not stressing out about it at all. I hope you are not. My impression is that you need to relax a bit. I don't know if that is accurate.

If you think I lay an attitude on the karaoke host when I arrive, you are wrong. I talk about these things here, because I do notice and I believe that hosts should know what their singers are thinking. And I talk to other singers, many of whom are casual singers but who have gone to karaoke for a long time. And if you think they don't notice, you haven't really talked to them much on more than a superficial level.

But it doesn't ruin or even slightly sour my life when things don't go my way. I love going to karaoke, and take what I can get.


You don't know diddly about me. Obviously.


Because I want to sing in public. And bars are where that is possible. For the most part, I go early to venues and leave before it gets real drunk there. Works great for me, and every karaoke host I know asks me to please come back. One reason they like me is that I tend to sing upbeat songs, as I think it is a karaoke downer if all the songs are ballads.


I go to karaoke three times a week on average. Obviously it does exist.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I'll add one thing to what Mr Scott said, and that is what is "Fair" to one person isn't "Fair" in the mind of another. Bruce, I find terrific irony in the fact that you're complaining about egomaniacs that know it all and don't see fit to change but then state that there is only "the fair way" and that being your view of what is fair. To me and my regular singers, everyone getting to sing once per round in the rotation IS fair. Order isn't important to them and it's not like the person that sang first in one round drops to tenth in the next. I don't WANT to change the rotation, but I also don't WANT the bar becoming bored with a string of 4 slow ballads in a row when they're looking to party up. My singers are aware of how I do my rotation, many (for what its worth) have expressed their appreciation for it and they don't think its unfair so who are you to stand here and tell me that it's not "the fair way"?

You preach open-minded challenging of the system but then in the same breath preach that there is only one fair way by which all KJ's should abide? An awful contradictory position if I've ever seen one. We keep coming back to the same thing, what I'm doing works for me. I bring in singers, make good money doing it and I enjoy making people smile, laugh and dance while doing so. Do some singers maybe go elsewhere because they don't like my show, maybe. But others come to my show because they do like the way I run it. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend?

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Well at least you all agree with me then

Hey! I used to live in a cabin without running water in Fairbanks, Alaska. I have news for you - when it's colder than -40* outside and you have to put on 30+ lbs of clothing to keep from freezing to death when you run to the outhouse you have PLENTY of reason to complain!

Alright, before anyone elese posts in this thread, I think viewing of this video clip should be mandatory:

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php ... 6274123574

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

"It's not correct to push our beliefs and wishes onto other people."

I never will be able to FORCE a KJ to believe what I believe if he doesn't want to but I can certainly make him aware of my beliefs. Then it is up to him or her to stay the same or change....maybe for the better.

For me to be told to keep my thoughts to myself is just as unfair as for me to insist that the KJ do things my way. If the KJ doesn't like a customer's "suggestion" he has every right to ignore it and if it's that big of a deal, the customer has the right to go elsewhere.

I like a very strict rotation policy. If the KJ plays willy nilly with it; that's enough of a reason for me not to go back.....and I see a lot of near empty shows where the KJ's play fast and loose with the rotation. I have the right to tell the KJ why I'm leaving and he has the right to ignore it......while he plays DJ music to a bar void of anyone waiting to sing. Why would he want to try something different????? Oh! I don't know....Maybe to attract and keep some singers at the bar????

I cannot be the egomaniac as a singer because I can't force anyone else to abide by what I think is FAIR. On the other hand; the KJ has the "power" to control what he believes to be fair and enforce his version of FAIRNESS on everyone at the bar. That is being an egomaniac. I'm offering constructive criticism. I'm not establishing policy. I think that there is a better way of being FAIR......as in first come first serve.

The person who gets into a car accident on the way home because he left the bar 5 minutes later than he would have if the KJ hadn't skipped him for a better song, might think that those 5 minutes extra that he had to wait were crucial to his existence. If he had sung 5 minutes sooner, that drunk driver never would have been at the same intersection at the same time. Just a thought!

I believe it's called the Butterfly Theory.

Well if we're doing first come first served, why is there a rotation at all? Then when that first person comes up and turns in 5 songs, shouldn't they sing all five before the third person to bring up a slip sings anything? I mean seriously, in that case a rotation itself is totally unfair because I turned in 10 songs at the start of the night but this person that came in an hour later turned in one song and sang it before I even got to do my third.

Again, one person's idea of what is fair is not the same as the other and when you stand here and tell us on this forum that we're not doing it "the fair way" you conflict with what you say later in your post.

Did you watch the video yet?

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Yes, I watched the video. Where did I ever say that the first person, or any person for that matter, could hand in more than one song at a time? You hand in your second song after you sing your first song. Then you are back at the end of the line again. Very simple and very fair. Everyone waits the same amount of time as everyone else. I don't like Broadway music AT ALL but I've never walked out of a venue to avoid listening to it, whether it was one song or 5 of them in a row. As a singer, I can't dictate what gets sung by others and I don't think that the KJ should move people around to create some sort of "vibe" other than a karaoke vibe. If a bar was a predominantly show tune type of place; I probably wouldn't go there very often, if at all. I was at a bar once where the KJ did a DUET ROUND for all of the people who had handed in duets to sing. Every person who only handed in a solo got skipped for an entire rotation of duets. NO BIG DEAL, RIGHT??? What's another 45 minutes????

You're all right - because it is your opinion and you have a right to it. I just wish we could agree to disagree civilly. What you guys do in your show doesn't effect me (unless it's illegal), so if I think your making bad decisions and you don't want to take my advice, I don't mind. If you tell me you don't agree with what I'm doing I'll take your advice into consideration, but don't want to be attacked if I believe differently. It seems so simple, but it's not.

I have high respect for several KJs on this board, but don't do everything exactly like they do. I don't dislike someone because they have a different way of running a show. I dislike someone who tries to tell me I have to do it their way or I'm a bad host. It's not all black and white. Look for the gray areas.

Rotation should be a discussion of all the different ways it can be done without judgment because is the long run I don't believe it effects any of us personally how someone else does theirs. Give your opinion of how you do it or how you'd like to see it done and let the reader decide if that's the type of show he'd like to go to or for a host to decide if that's the best way to do it for their circumstances. OR am I just crazy.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Babs,,, ding, ding, ding, give yourself a gold star!!! Well said. thats how it should be done here on this forum. Don't jump down someone else's neck for being different. If advise is asked for, give your view, and let the reader decide for themselves what is best for their situation.

And right there I can point to a number of my regulars who'd not be happy at your show. So we're back to what everyone else has said here all along that you just aren't getting Bruce, there are more fair and right ways to do it than just the Bruce approved method. You like to do it that way, that's fine. I choose to do it another and as I've said, my regulars enjoy it that way (or they wouldn't be regulars). So why is it so hard for you to accept that other KJ's may do it differently from the way you would?

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

OK...let me take this opportunity to apoligize to the OP as well as anyone else I may have offended by being a little, er...crass. I guess that's the results of growing up on the streets of New York.

Alan

if everyone here has shows, and everyone here has regulars that keep coming back, isn't everyone doing it right? some singers like the strict rotation method (i did), some like a more loose and dynamic rotation, others like the favortism method (those shows are still going for a reason). there is a singer for every type of show, and a show for every type of singer. i think the idea here was to see how other people do it and why. personally i have gotten some great ideas, and seen other points of view on different issues all over this board. Babs said it well, this could be a great discussion and LOADS of great information and ideas can be exchanged. i think we are all just trying to make our business the best they can be and in every business there are groups that get together and exchange ideas for the better of the industry. take it all in, discard what wont work for you, absorb and utilize what will, hold hands and sing kumbaya. (if that works for you )

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

I accept the fact that some, even many, KJ's don't run their shows the way that I would like them to. That doesn't mean that I'm going to say that I like the way they do it. It doesn't mean that I stop going to those shows either. It just means that I think, in my opinion, that there is a better mouse trap. I'm in NO WAY forcing anyone to adopt my philosophy of karaoke rotations. I'm just putting it out there for anyone else who might want to try something different. I go to a vast variety of karaoke shows with a variety of rotation styles. I'm just stating what I prefer. I accept, for the most part, what is offered by the KJ. If the KJ is so rigid in his rotation policy that he will not consider any other way of doing it; I weigh my options accordingly. I'm not a KJ. I'm just a singer who knows what he likes and dislikes. If a KJ doesn't care about the singer's opinions, he or she is only hurting their chances of cultivating regular singers for his various shows.

The harshest word that I have used is ego maniac. I never thought of that word as being crude.

No you're not, you very specifically said that KJ's who "toy" with the rotation do so because they "just hate having to be locked in to doing things the fair way". You've stated that there is only one fair way and that KJ's who adjust the rotation do so because we supposedly just like to tinker and don't care about the singers. You've also said that those who chose not to use your method of fair, aren't open minded. All false.

First, I do care about my singers and the rest of the bar too. The singers and non-singers alike that I've dealt with for my career in Karaoke (and myself when I was just a singer) become very bored and uninterested when certain conditions occur (mediocre singers singing 4 ballads in a row for instance). I choose to do what I can to avoid this situation because I want to keep people having fun and enjoying it. Are there those in my crowd that don't enjoy that method, possibly, but as you've noted they don't stick around long. Considering the number of regulars I have and the successes of my show, I'm ok with that. From what I can see I would lose many more if I changed how I did it.

Now that doesn't mean that I don't consider the opinions of others on how I could improve things. It definitely doesn't mean I don't incorporate others ideas, especially those aired here (fact is there are a lot of things in my show that I have changed based on ideas I've gotten here). However the fact that I choose not to implement a different way of doing things doesn't mean that I'm closed-minded, or that I'm egotistical or that I don't care. It means that I've made the business decision that the idea or method presented is not right for my business.

So back to the video, don't be so dang quick to judge (and yes, you HAVE been judgemental).

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Except tbreen takes it too far to the extreme. Yes your customer is the bar not the bar patrons, that's why you'll notice you never see me refer to them as my customers. However, you can't totally disocunt the patrons either, because they are a part of your customer's needs. Your customer needs them to be in the bar spending money, so you have to treat the patrons in a way that keeps them coming back and (very important point here as Cheese will atest to) SPENDING MONEY. This is why catering to the needs of the infamous "water drinker" is so dangerous. If you fill a bar with these folks, and they aren't spending money at the bar, your bar owner will be just as unhappy as if the place were empty.

That's the whole point. While we usually measure our success by how many singers we have or how full the bar is, the bar owners are not. They're watching the bottom line (as has been discussed here ad naseum). We as entertainment providers have to pick a strategy for getting the most money into the till. There's the brute force method of get as many singers in as you can and some of them will spend money, there's the make sure that both singers and non-singers are entertained and coming back because the non-singers are even more likely to be there to spend money, and of course countless other ways as well.

This is why singers like Bruce don't like hearing us talk about this in terms of the Karaoke Business perspective. They only have a narrow perspective of the much bigger picture. When one considers all the complexities of the job we're doing and our sometimes conflicting goals, it suddenly isn't as black and white as simply first come first served.


** EDIT ** If you doubt the impact of water drinkers, just look at the whole line dancing craze of the 90's. There were a lot of big clubs that had awesome bands and line dancing every night of the week that went out of business despite being packed. The reason was they paid big money for bands to get the line dancers in but the dancers were there to dance not drink. They drank water and the clubs didn't make money. It's a great example of the importance of remembering that the entertainment in a bar is there to attract drinkers to the bar not to entertain the masses.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

That being said, as an independent contractor with your own brand -- should you have one -- you can certainly have a legitimate duty to yourself and your brand. This may conflict with doing what the bar owner wants, and as an independent contractor you have to balance this and protect yourself. Of course, you can choose your brand to be weak and do mostly what the venue owner wants, should you choose. But I can easily see someone not doing exactly what the venue owner wants in every detail, for good reason.

Of course the ultimate duty is to someone's bottom line, and if you don't perform for the venue they won't be bringing you back.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I agree 100%. I typically put new singers in the rotation whereby they'll wait at least 20-30 minutes, this gives them time to sit down and hopefully shed some cash for the venue. I also do not have a problem with calling a non-spender out, of course in private.

In one such occurrence, I had a regular patron that would come in early, order up a FREE water (I later convinced the venue to STOP serving FREE water) and sat there ALL night, occupying a table for four, continually asking for free refills, and then leaving without a dime on the table. I called him to the side and through simple math, explained that the venue had paid me $16.00 for him alone to sing that night. I demonstrated that with what I was being paid hourly divided by an average rotation of 15 an hour, they were paying $4.00 per stage appearance, he sang 4 times that evening, therefore $16.00. He apologized, seemingly unaware of what the venue was investing in HIS entertainment, and from then on proceeded to anny up, even ordered food AND drink!

tbreen