Karaoke Forums

The biggest problem I see is that with MP3+G, or any format that takes up less disk space than CDG, it is much easier for someone to steal the producer's work. I like the idea of using DVD, because instrumental sections could be replaced with animation, but someone will probably just start ripping the VOBs into AVI and selling them by the thousands.

-denise

True. But in this case we're only talking about the CDG (graphics file) that is ripped from a CD or supplied by the manus. It's kinda useless all by itself. I don't think there would be any increased risk of piracy.

Right now a CDG file is pretty much impractical (to the point of nearly being impossible) to edit. If it was in a text format that problem would be solved. I'm not a big fan of blazing text effects or background videos but at least those things would be possible without bit level manipulation in a text based format.

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Okay, who took my pants?

I see serious limits with video, the problem being is that the music file is not separate from the graphics. As a result we are not able to get an easy apprasial of the sound file in terms of how compressed it was. With a video karaoke we will allways be asking the question is that a karaoke song with high quality audio that is minimally or not compressed or a low quality audio with a high quality graphics file for the video.

Fred it won't be delivered as video, just a script that can be converted to video.

From a sign outside a satellite sales store in the later part of the 80's....

"The only thing you can't unscramble is eggs."

In other words, anything you come up with to prevent illegal copying isn't going to be effecting over the long term. As you develop methods to prevent copying, people will start working on ways to overcome them. Worse case scenario, they'll take a quality hit and just re-record it.

After all, you can get first run movies the day they open in theatres because someone took a movie camera in and recorded it all (often using the 'hearing impaired' headphone jack to get a clean 'audio feed').

That being said....

Any format that's considered will have limitations.

The graphics (+G) side of the CD+G standard wasn't really designed for karaoke specifically. It was designed for 'extended' information for CD's when they were played. Lyrics could be shown, as could album art, and other creative visual information.

If we move from CD+G the formats that make the most sense would be single file formats hooking the audio and video portions together. This could be DVD, or even an older format like SVCD - both of which will play on 'most' modern karaoke players - and the SVCD format plays in most of the older karaoke players that are out there.

We've seen multiple standards come and go... and they just never caught on because of a lack of widespread adoption in the US - though they still provide large amounts of foreign karaoke on those formats. Formats like SCDG, KFN, Neo+G, and not to mention a HUGE number of other formats we already know - stuff like MIDI, DVD, HDCD, DVD-Audio, etc.

But moving to a full on video file has one issue most people miss. The US uses the NTSC standard while the rest of the world uses PAL (though this is changing with HD TV and other changes). Add in DVD region issues and it gets even tougher.

There isn't any 'magic bullet' file format yet. And even if you develop one, you have to convince the manufacturers to embrace the format, convince the people to switch to the format, and the hosts to embrace it as well.

Besides, if I was doing a single file computer based show I'd probably look at DiVX as my format of choice. Open source, can be used in pretty much any operating system, and many modern DVD and Blu-Ray players support the format as well.

The top entry is what I saw when I came here tonight..

Weedo I'm guessing you're going to build something we open .CDG files on our hard drives with, and it extrapolates the timing?

That'll be pretty sick.

Yeah, I was kinda thinking about it. But what would be the point if nobody wants to switch?

Anybody who ever tried to write a karaoke hoster knows there are two major stumbling blocks, the CDG interpreter and the key changer. Converting to a text format would get rid of the interpreter. Until someone comes up with a better idea than FFT the key changer is hopeless.

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Okay, who took my pants?

I wouldn't get discouraged just yet weed...

I was the FIRST in my market using a PC (Kind of funny that a guy like me would be in the capital of silicon valley) 10 years later, you can't find a disc based KJ.

Sure, you and I might be the first two scanning our CDG's, uploading the timing files to a central repository, showing off video of our rendered videos but eventually we'll have a 3rd person saying, "WOW that's cool! I want in!" Then a 4th, 5th, etc.

I don't think it'll click with anybody until they see why we're doing it, then we'll see every karaoke jock on board.

Yes you have my support, yes I'd use it, just so long as the format stays somewhat compatible with aegisub.

But what are the legalities regarding this? If we use music we already have, but change the visual, is that pirating, or a form of? What about sync licensing, etc?
Otherwise, I'd be interested. I like the idea of smaller files and cleaner screens...

Good question. I wish I had the answer but because courts in the US make the law up as they go along according to their momentary whim, it is impossible to tell.

As for being synchronised (the video depending on the timing of the audio or the other way around) that is not the case. CDG and the proposed format both have internal timing not connected to the audio track. I can't see the manu's who sell MP3+G formatted karaoke not being on board with this. Text is a heck of a lot easier to deal with than CDG and would cut their production costs.

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Okay, who took my pants?

I don't see why you say this. Are you suggesting programmers deal with every song as they produce it? I am sure they don't. They have musicians -- or just regular stiffs -- produce the song via their version of KHP or whatever software. It writes the CDG file. How would it be any different if the format changed? Oh, and by the way -- their current toolset is completely invalidated. New tools have to be written, to a format that is not fully ironed out.

I am all for technically improving things, but I haven't seen any seminal benefit for the user yet. Without that, I don't see what incentive anyone would have to do this. Certainly not one that would require overturning 20 years of inertia.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Sync licensing has virtually NOTHING to do with the actual time syncing of lyrics. For a definition of SYNC LICENSING you should visit http://musicians.about.com/od/qz/g/synclicensing.htm .

The top paragraph pretty much explains what a SYNC LICENSE is, especially the last sentence, "but any kind of visual paired with sound requires a sync license.". So YES, sync licensing WILL be required for each and every song converted. Simple as that. If you're really serious about pursuing this venture, a few dollars spent toward competent legal advice may be in order?

tbreen

Once again we have third hand legal advice. Quote me from U.S.C. 17 or don't bother. A lawyers opinion is no more valid than yours or mine. He/she/it probably didn't bother to read the flipping law either.

On a computer, a CDG file is not paired with anything. It runs independently of any music. Want proof? Swap the names of any two CDG files on your computer, queue up that song and push "Play." You'll have the music of one song playing with the lyrics of the other. If there was any actual relationship between the two that wouldn't happen. That you need music at all is a limitation of your player, it could as easily run without it.

If there is a copyright issue it would be with the CDG manufacturers. I can't really see them objecting to a format change as it would in no way affect profitability.

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Okay, who took my pants?

No, I'm not suggesting that Karaoke producers have programmers on staff. Why would they need them? But they do have people typing out the lyrics and imputting the timing data. That must be an art in itself because CDG writes so slowly to the screen and the unforgiving nature of command 38. Fewer man hours more profit.
If we're going to give up the disks I do think it's time for a change.

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Okay, who took my pants?

Have you never used one of the packages that do this? Inputting the timing data is like playing a flute or a keyboard. You tap keys.


No one pays a single bit of attention to it. They transcribe the lyrics -- nowadays just copying and editing them from the Internet -- then run it through the program. Takes me about 20 minutes to do a poor job, including transcribing the lyrics. If I give a good amount of quality control to the editing of the lyrics and pay very close attention to the sweeps, it takes me about an hour. I never think a thing about CDG format, it just works.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I knew you'd try to bend the facts! I simply said you should seek COMPETENT legal advice before pursuing the venture. Your argument, without question, proves you have NOT sought out ANY legal advice, TRUE? As for your assertion that because the video and audio come from two different streams would somehow invalidate the need for sync licensing is absurd. If that's the case, then the producers of standard CDG's shouldn't need sync licensing, since as you may be aware, the lyrics and audio are stored in two separate locations on the CDG, seems similar to your argument of two separate files? Doesn't hold water.

tbreen

There is no such thing as competent legal advice. The courts make the law up as they go along. Congress makes law they have no authority for. Courts rule in matters they have legal no authority over. We all have to abide by whatever they say or be shot. There is no point in legal advice, at all. Lawyers don't know the law, they know the court system which is self serving and self interested. You're right, I didn't get legal advice before I posed the question of a format change on this forum. Quote the law or you're just flapping your fingers on the keyboard.

Now as for the CDG information being in a different area of the CD than the graphics information... Could be.... I was told the CDG information is in the last six bits of the timing bytes residing in the sectors with the audio data but these people who told me could have been liars (who did not seek legal advice). The timing bytes have the first bit set alternately to 1 and then 0 at predictable intervals so the CD player can check the speed, but I can't swear to that because I didn't write the protocol and I've never built a CD pressing machine (because it would have required legal advice.)

Now I would have gotten out my microscope and had a closer look at the CD but between the interleaving, 8-14 error correction and two levels or Reed/Solomon and no information on the legalities of microscopes, it would have been hopeless.

What a legal nightmare! The manu's sold me a license for music and lyrics display but the method by which the lyrics get to the screen is regulated, by the video card, processor, display type, ten thousand things, is it a legitimate error correction type?Does the interpreter use DirectX or not? Heaven help them they may have used a wrapper class.... Well damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead I just may replace the legal text with illegal text and fly in the face of all text authority! I walk on the wild side, I am proud to be a text-criminal.

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Okay, who took my pants?

Exactly... If the manu's barely deal with piracy, they're not even going to touch this. If anything, if they see a large percentage of hosts using this new format, chances are they'll switch.

I'd happily buy a new player that would allow me to use a more up to date method for lyrics. Something less error prone preferable.

I do agree that it's high time something better came along rather than the silly graphics track on the CD+G. CD+Text makes perfect sense to me. In fact it'd be easy for manufactured to lay out a singe background on disc and simply have the timed text appear over that background. In fact it'd take up so little room on the disc I'm betting they can add it to regular CDGs.

Stop making CEG only players and have each player read CDG and the new format, create multi format discs and eventually everyone would have made the switch. The new format players read all types (trivial cost/technology wise) and then folks can enjoy their old discs and new discs.

Precedent: Blue ray players still read standard DVDs.

There just has to be a compelling economic reason for manufacturers to do the work. It'll come, just hasn't hit critical mass yet.

I doubt that the suggested new format would ever come to CDs. The beauty of CDG was that it did not conflict with or affect the audio data. I'm pretty sure this would only work for computer based folks at least at first.

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Okay, who took my pants?