Karaoke Forums

You know many on this board, myself included, talk about under-cutters and why they're bad for business. But then I see folks post messages on here basically admitting that they undercut or take gigs for far less than they should. So it got me to thinking about one of the possible motivations for this, and it seems to me that the biggest reason is that people either don't know or aren't patient enough when it comes to "breaking into the scene". So I wanted to put down some thoughts related to that here and see what y'all think as well.

I've seen wannabe KJ's, production suppliers and audio engineers attempt to use under cutting as a way to establish themselves. I know of many wannabe production/audio engineers that take ridiculously low (and in most cases unrealistically low) paying gigs, thinking that somehow they'll get discovered and suddenly get booked for large high paying gigs. I know of guys who've read a lot of books and articles about the subject but have no real practical experience who go in and make a mess of what should be a simple gig because they're trying to build a portfolio. Again, not one time have I ever seen this tactic actually work. It seems to me the same would apply with KJ's.

How many KJ's do you know out there who've taken poor paying gigs as their way to get started who've actually been successful? I've watch a few in my area who had no interest in learning from others or building contacts or networking, try this method instead only to fall on their faces and sell off their gear in a desperate fire sale. So what is the right or most proven way to get into this business?

From what I've seen both in the world of KJ/DJ's and in Live Audio production, getting your foot in the door doesn't happen from taking crap gigs. Everyone of the successful guys I know in both realms got where they are today through patience and being willing to start at the bottom. They worked with others in the industry to learn the trade. They developed key contacts and networked with many of the professionals already in the industry to make things happen. They DIDN'T tick off other professionals by driving prices down by under-cutting or taking gigs where the bookers were not realistic about the costs. Over time they developed trust by demonstrating that they could learn not just out of books but also in practical application, by proving they understood the business not just from their perspective but from their clients' perspectives as well, they showed that they're willing to work their way up earn the respect of the clients rather than simply succumb to the demands of the client.

I've run into so many guys who can quote specs, toss out tons of audio engineering theory and mathematics but when it comes to actually "driving the rig" you'd swear their ears must be plugged with crud. Worse yet are the ones who don't even care enough to learn the academic side and just run out and buy a bunch of gear and label themselves as professionals. I'm amazed at how few are really willing to learn the business let alone have the presence of mind to setup a true business plan.

So ultimately my question becomes, am I living in my own world here? Am I wrong about what really works when you set out to build a successful KJ, DJ or live production business? What have you guys seen? What have you experienced yourselves (and be honest please, this should be a learning experience for all of us)? Finally, if I am right, how do we impart this knowledge on those seeking to enter the field or should we even do so? Personally I think we'd all benefit from helping others develop their businesses but what do you think?

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

I think you are correct, but that there is a big difference in the degree of learning and experience from live sound producer to KJ. And the skills are largely different. In live sound, extreme technical knowledge is a requirement, and experience in deploying that knowledge is paramount. You don't get that easily, and it takes a real commitment. I have all of the equipment necessary to start doing it, and I wouldn't dream of it because I can't make the commitment. (I'm probably also too old to start humping gear regularly.)

Karaoke host is a different story. It doesn't take much skill or much of an ear to be above average in making equipment sound great. You can get people to help you set up and slowly learn how to do it yourself. The most important attributes are personality, consistency, and reliability.

So the parallels are there, but they aren't great. It is much easier to be a KJ than a live sound guru.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

The reason for "undercutters" can be as many different reasons as there are undercutters, they all can have their own reasons. I think it all comes down to "getting a piece of the pie". NOW, in reference to the rest of your thread, I think you're not even comparing apples and oranges, you're trying to compare grapes and watermelons. The reason I say this, is a person can be a GOOD kj without having the technical knowledge of an electronics engineer. If you learn about YOUR OWN equipment and how to use it, I think you're ahead of the game. I know thousands of people who are GREAT drivers, that couldn't tell you the first step of how to change their oil. Hell, there's alot of them that can't even CHECK their oil. This is not to mention that they can drive THEIR car, but put them in a different type of car, they're terrified. (compact vs. land yacht) This is the difference, an ENGINEER can not only RUN someone elses equipment, but could fix it if something went wrong, or at the VERY LEAST they could diagnose the problem. They could also step in and set-up someone elses equipment, (I know I couldn't), unless it was the same type of set-up. If I had to set-up a system that had passive speakers with seperate amps, I'd have to (at least) have the manual "in advance". NO COMPARISON in my opinion.

Rosario

I hear what your saying and it makes a lot of sense.

From my experience the price you start at is usually the price you will get as long as you work that venue. It is nearly impossible to talk a bar owner into more money once you've settled for less. Heck I've only gotten one raise in 6 yrs and that was only because he caught wind another bar was pursuing me heavily.

I think it is a last resort to get gigs - not a good starting into the business idea. I can see maybe discounting your first gig to get your foot in the door as a trial basis, but letting them know this is not your going rate and if they do hire you on the price goes up. But again last resort.

That being said - Undercutters at some point fizzle out. It's a lot of work setting up and tearing down, dealing with people etc.... At some point it stops being fun when you realize the amount of work you're putting in for the money. Most people in general feel like they are worth more money than they're getting paid - even worse when your discounting yourself. Sure it's a bad idea to undercut because your only undercutting yourself. They just have to learn for themselves and I think the majority do. Unfortunately if the market is bad in your area you'll see more of this. That tends to produce bar owners who have a high rate of turn over in their entertainment and less quality entertainment for being cheap. It's not just the newbie undercutters that are going about it the wrong way, but the bar owners also.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Tony, I am not taking any offense to what you might be asking. Some people might tho. They will defend how and why they are doing what they are doing. With that said, I know when I first started hosting several years ago, I had no clue what I was doing. I didn't even know what knob did what. But over time, and experience, I eventually learned how to make each person sound as good as they could with the equipment I had. Eventually upgrading to equipment that had more functionality. Now as far as the people who begin with the lack of a "plan" as you call it, I definitely was one of them. I had no plan, no clue and no idea what it took to be successful as KJ. I however did NOT undercut anyone. I simply saw the worth of my "craft" and that is what I have done, stood my ground on what I will accept as far as pay. This doesn't mean I wouldn't like more, but the competition dictates what is possible in each area. Undercutters DO affect what is acceptable, and that is simply what all of us have to deal with and accept. If we (I) want to expand reputations, then we (I) either need to accept what is offered, or reject it and not have that gig/show. Our choice to decide and make. I chose to accept some gigs that I normally would not have taken, simply for the reason I needed the money. Some have worked out, most have not. I think it all depends on competition and the market itself, hence how many potential gigs/shows are there in the area that we as hosts are willing to cover. In my area, the potential is very minimal, because I live in a very rural area. My closest show is 50 miles away. And then there are the private shows, which are few and far between. Private shows usually in my area will NOT pay over a couple hundred bucks. They simply won't budget any more than that. Even weddings, will top out around here around 500. And to get one that will pay even that is rare.

Each of us as entertainers, when we first started as hosts made either a conscience decision of how/when/where we were going to take our shows. But along the way, life happens and we stray from our ideals and goals. That happens all the time. Very few of us actually stayed the course and achieved what was our eventual goals. Tony, if you look back on how you started and what was your goals at the time, I am sure they are quite different. And I'm sure you make mistakes along the way, just as all of us have done, me included.

What really works? It's different for everyone. How do you teach cooking? How to you teach someone how to be a mechanic? Different methods for different people and personalities and eventual goals. I believe there are certain "givens" in our industry for sure, like the ability to operate our own gear properly, set it up, and have certain basic standards (promptness, and a sense of dependability). But past that, personalities play into what determines how and where we want to go with our business'. Not to mention the different needs and requirements of our own areas.

When it comes to doing KJ/DJ I think what you find many newcomers to the scene doing is dropping their pants on their rates just to get work and 'exposure'.

In my band days, many groups would play free shows for that 'exposure'.. just to get themselves out in front of people, and try and build a following.. because let's face it.. if you wake up one morning and decide you're going to start 'Joe Bob's Karaoke'.. who has ever heard of it?

When you approach clubs they'll ask, "Where else do you play? Do you have a following?"

Are people going to look through the paper or see the sign in front of the bar and say, "Oh! Joe Bob's Karaoke is at the Crusty Clam every Wednesday! We'll have to make it a point to attend!"

With live entertainment it's all about who you know, not how low you can go on the price.

The problem with getting into the biz being the cut rate guy is that's the foundation your reputation will be built on.. Oh, yeah.. Joe Bob's Karaoke.. he's the guy that plays the (@$%&#!) hole dives for $50!

Many cats think it's a good way to get started.. but in my opinion, it's just a good way to set yourself up for being typecast much like actors do.

Networking, getting into the loop, knowing people in the bar biz.. that's the key to getting a solid foot in the door at clubs.

Low prices will actually cost you work. When a top end club starts calling places in the yellow pages and gets quotes like $300 and up per night, then you walk in and say you'll do it for $75.. well.. they're immediately going to suspect something is up. Like maybe you suck.

Kind of like someone offering to sell you a 2010 BMW for $1600.. or an SM58 for $10.

It's either f'ed up, or stolen.

I think some of you completely misunderstood my comparison. My point was that the key pieces to building a business are not having all the book smarts and technical knowledge but rather the networking with other professionals, venue owners, etc. and demonstrating your worth over time. The result of that is getting good gigs because people know you and know they can trust you rather than getting gigs because you're willing to take crap. That's where I see the parallels, is that whether it's a KJ or an audio engineer, you build a good strong business by getting to know people, the business and earning trust not by doing things cheap as a form of "getting started".

As Babs said, my experience is once you start taking those low paying crap gigs, it's very difficult to dig yourself out of it so it actually becomes counter productive.

Mr Scott, certainly my goal is not to offend anyone. We've all made our businesses the way that we've made them. My point is, if there is something we can do to help others avoid what I am seeing as common pitfalls, shouldn't we do that? In the end I think it would benefit all of us.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Exactly the point I was trying to make (but apparently didn't do a clear enough job of), sounds like you see it the same way I do.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

I agree with you on the point, "it's not what you know, but WHO you know. That goes for ANY business. Whether you STAY in business is determined on what you do with the opportunity you're given.

Rosario

While I agree that a lot of the time, it's not WHAT you know, but WHO you know that will make or break a business. This is very true in our industry. By associating yourself with known successful people, you are more likely to be successful yourself. That is is true in many walks of life. By learning "the ropes" if you will, from people who have proven time and time again that they are successful hosts/entertainers, then a little bit of their positive energy can't help but rub off on you. The realization of it tho is, and it happens more often than not, people see others who have become successful hosts, want to cut corners and have it all right now. Much the same as the youth of today seeing their parents have a nice house, nice cars, fun toys and they want it for themselves, going into debt at an early age. Hence, causing them to flounder financially at a young age. They can't see what their parents had and do go through to achieve their levels of comfort. It's a long learning process.

Now to associate that with our industry, one who is just starting out wanting to become a successful host, must also go through the learning process. I think this is what Tony is referring to. To begin, a new wannabe host should have a strong desire for their own excellence and expectations. A love of music is also a MUST, the good, bad and anywhere in between. Go to as many different shows as humanly possible, seeing different techniques and habits. Learn from the good as well as the bad. Next is to have a positive game plan for success. That being said, not wanting to cut corners and have your cake and eat it too soon.

I agree with what both Tony and Cheese have said too, networking and building a good relationship with successful venue owners and other fellow KJ/DJ's. This actually might take years, but well worth it. Don't sell yourself short in your abilities and goals. Set your goals high, but attainable still. If a person is 100% committed to an idea, and takes positive action, then they can achieve ANY goal or idea. Key thing is to be 100% committed, and to make the appropriate actions.

Keep talking about this stuff, guys. I'm one of those newbs trying to break into the business, and I'm soaking it all up.

While I see the OP as being good info, in my case, it wasn't like I could call someone up and say "hey I'm new to the business and I want $350 per gig. You should hire me".

Ain't gonna happen!

Do I consider myself an undercutter? No. First of all, I'm in a rural type area. Cost of living here is low. Yes, I did take one of those $75 gigs. However, in my flyer to the bar that hired me, it was a one time offer for this person to try out this new business without breaking the bank. When it was all said and done, I got a regular gig out of it for $125 per 4 hour gig. This was a weeknight gig. The lowest price I have done since then for karaoke (other than for a friend) has been a $150 bar gig and a $250 private party. I've actually been making more money on the DJ side.

I've also had $200 bar gigs on weekends.

My opinion is that it's ok to offer a low price for a trial period. There's no way I would do an ongoing gig for $75. I've been keeping fairly busy since May doing private parties with a few bar gigs scattered here and there.

I do network. Last night I was on the phone with a local DJ who has thrown me a few scraps. Him, I and another DJ help each other out and fill in for each other.

It's not that easy to break into the business. If you get lucky and know an owner and "fall into" a good situation, cool. I haven't been that lucky yet but I have a good reputation and it's getting out there to more people. I really wouldn't change anything I have done so far. I didn't do an apprenticeship of any kind, have had a lot of fun with what I have done, met a lot of people and have gotten about half of my investment back. It's a long term plan for me and I will have plenty of references to fall back on when I hit the big city and go for the bigger money. Highly unlikely I have driven the price down in my area for karaoke, the only 2 places in town I know that are doing karaoke on a regular basis are using their own equipment. Both set ups are pretty cheesy.

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

The OP does, as he said, live in his own little world. As do we all. I, for example can't see that KJing and DJing and audio engineering have anything to do with each other. My karaoke show is not about the sound it's about the party. Karaoke is not something you come to hear it's something you come to do. If someone walks into the bar alone I want them to leave with friends. You get work if you make the bar money. It's as simple as that. So maybe you take the gig cheap for the first month an least you have your foot in the door.

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Okay, who took my pants?

I crawled before I walked. My early gigs were cheap, for karaoke, DJing, and live sound. I did probably a dozen sound gigs FOR FREE to gain some experience that I couldn't get from reading. I've obviously done bunches more since. I'm good at what I do now; but when I have the opportunity to BE on a digital console I've never used before, I still take it, no matter the pay.

I'm supplying PA for an opening act in a couple of weeks, and I do not have to do it (they could use the house DJ's rig or bring their own while mine sits idle and I stay at home an extra 4 hours) but one of the musicians has a huge acoustic bass. I do not know how to mic one effectively yet, so I'll go find out. I'll then sit at the venue for 4 hours with nothing to do, but that's the price of learning something new.

I do a BUNCH of low-budget benefit/charity events with multiple bands. I do these because easily half the bands ask for my business cards every time I do one. Even if they can't afford my rates on a routine basis, I get gigs out of these; and it absolutely builds up my reputation among local musicians. When I show up at a gig, no one worries about me being "just a KJ" little more than a year ago.

Doing something cheap to gain reputation or experience may hurt other competitors, but there are ankle-biters at every level except the lowest. I'll put it this way, if some inexperienced pup isn't begging to take your gig for a lower price, you must be the cheapest; a good indicator that you are either under-paid or performing poorly.


Tony's style may be different than yours, but I do not believe for a moment that he is in "another world." Like him, I deliver the best sound quality I can. I also bust my butt with filler music when one singer is stepping down and the next is on their way to the stage, selecting tracks that fit the crowd or provide a good walk-on for the next singer as a DJ does. I also talk up the performers, banter with the crowd and bar staff, and have as much fun with the patrons as I can (if I didn't, I wouldn't do karaoke!)

These things all go together very well for me. I know other KJs who don't play one minute of between-singers music, get through dead air by telling jokes or shining spotlights out into the crowd, do a lot of singing themselves, etc. Their shows work for them, but in my town, my format is hands-down the most successful / popular.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

I did a 50's show with an acoustic stand up bass (cello) with a D112 on it, sounded great.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I disagree with exweed on not needing to adjust music/voice. We have the singer quality we do because of that and the atmosphere (and till) is still a party, but the singing quality is far above the average karaoke stereotype. Good singers will still spend money - they just want to sound good doing so.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

This scares me a ton. Whether you're a DJ, KJ, small time club engineer or FOH engineer in a 25,000 person venue, one thing remains in common. You're at the controls of gear that has the capability to seriously and permanently damage the hearing of the people in your venue. Hell in most countries in Europe, you have to have a license (which requires training) just to operate PA gear. While the application is different, the skills are very similar (or should be) in many areas.

Yes I agree Karaoke is about the act of doing, but there are also people that come to listen. Even those that sing like to know that they sound their best. Also your goal is to make sure to keep people in the bar. If you're causing people's ears to ring or giving them headaches because your volume is out of control or your mid-range is ridiculously exaggerated, they'll be headed for the doors earlier. I've seen it happen first hand many times.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Well I don't damage their hearing but I do a great job on their eyes.

Recently I did a birthday party for someone.
He was very pleased. Well... can't have been that pleased. Small tip.
Anyway he told me he was a Mason (Skull & Bones)
Said I would be getting a lot more work.
Maybe who you know does help.

I think figuring out where to place the mic will be more difficult than what mic to use. I plan to try a Heil PR22 and an Audix D4 if those will fit someplace, or if not, a Heil Handi or an AT Pro37.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

My show is about 3 things.

1. The party
2. The sound
3. The happiness of the boss.

If 1 and 2 suck, 3 probably won't happen. Sorry farmer but I don't know how you can see karaoke isn't about sound. Yes, there are those out there that don't give a rat's azz about how good it sounds. But there are that do care. I know because many of them have approached me and told me how good it sounds. `

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]