Karaoke Forums

25,000 people! What's the wait time to sing?!!!

Can your really compare a concert setting to a one-night-a-week karaoke bar? No one's hearing is in danger at my shows. I just don't turn it up that loud.

DJs want people to dance. KJs want people to sing. Audio engineers want people to be mesmerized by the beauty of their mix. The only thing they have in common is that they all use PA gear. The people we work for just want to make a profit.

ripman8 said: " Sorry farmer but I don't know how you can see karaoke isn't about sound."

After three drinks who can tell the difference?

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Okay, who took my pants?

Sound doesn't matter at all?

Do you really see it that way?

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

No. Distortion, feedback, clipping, are going to drive people right out the door. But then so are rap, hip hop, and Pat Boone. You do need a fairly clear sounding system with enough power to be loud without sounding loud. Subs are nice but not a show killer if you don't have them. Audio monitors for the singers I think are a must because the singers want to mix too. But, micro-tweaking each singer I think is silly. Maybe what sounds good to the KJ sound horrible to the singer. I think if you do a sound check and adjust from the middle of the room before the show, use at least two different microphones (one dark and one bright) and be ready for the screamers and whisperers, then you're gold. If you tweak all the singers then all the singers sound the same. If you give them all the same level playing field it gives them each a chance to stand out.

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Okay, who took my pants?

Ahh, is this the "you take the mic and blast out the first word and go "uh oh" so you pull the mic away a bit or soften your voice and the next line can't be heard at all because you just got turned down so you get louder and end up blasting the audience because you just got turned up" thing?

Weed, no two singers sound the same at my show and I do tweak every singer. Each song records differently, and each singer sings differently. I use the adjustments on the mics, too, to keep those shrill sounding females or muddy sounding bass singers from driving everyone around the bend. I don't think it's a bad thing to adjust everyone to a nice sound for people to listen to. I'm not interested in driving people out - I've been to shows where that has happened - singers start, and even if volume is set, just what they sing or how they sing, or what the sound is mixed like, drives spending spectators out.

Right, and so do you not configure your rig so as to avoid those things? Do you not realize that part of mixing live entertainment includes avoiding/eliminating these undesirables as well? You said no one's hearing is in danger (I'll paraphrase here) because you run your rig at appropriate levels, well certainly you understand that part of engineering audio for a concert is ensuring appropriate levels right?

Sure, in Karaoke we're not mixing a live band. I don't have to worry about EQ'ing the ring out of the snare drum or making sure that each instrument has it's own sonic space. But I do have to worry about gain structure, EQ (at minimum to eliminate feedback), and mixing the levels of the different vocals so all can be laid properly within the mix with the music. So to say that KJ's have nothing in common with audio engineers is totally false.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm the first to be completely annoyed by weekend warrior DJ's or KJ's who think just because they figured out how to use their rig that they're now somehow qualified to provide production and mix for a live band. I've seen many try it and they suck and their attitude of "I already know how to do this" means they're unwilling to learn from those that actually have been doing it for years. So yes, I agree the leap from KJ to audio tech or engineer is a big one. But to say there is little to nothing in common is not correct.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Actually, I said the only thing they have in common was PA gear. If they have something more in common please elaborate. I'm not trying to twist anyone's tail here but I think mixer etiquette in a small bar is pretty simple. Now adjusting for room acoustics, there's an art.

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Okay, who took my pants?

Dancing is wanted at all 3! And if 3 drinks really do that to you, maybe the legal driving limit should be lowered which is at .08 (basically 4 beers). I can tell the difference.

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

Subwoofer = more dancing.

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

It's not necessarily volume that can be the problem here.
If you don't have your highs, mids, and lows correctly balanced, you can STILL damage hearing, regardless of volume.
As an example: have you ever walked into a venue and it just HURT your ears because it was too loud?
Well, that's not volume. That's bad mix. I've actually been asked in some places to fix it and all I ever do is adjust the mix, NOT the volume, and suddenly, people think I've turned it down, but I haven't. Why? Because their ears don't hurt anymore.
Prime example of why you should be mixing each singer is the shrill women (hurts your ears!) and the muddy deep males( what are they singing?), like someone else said.
There's no reason on earth not to make each singer sound great.
I get compliments all the time on my sound and I know for a fact that I attract more patrons because of it. Notice I said "patrons" and not "singers".
That's because I get many who never sing but come out to enjoy the show.

The "ear fatiguing" mix you are describing is actually inaudible HF distortion. The easiest way to avoid that is to have speakers with good HF drivers and enough amp headroom. This is something manufacturers really don't talk about, don't measure, and don't publish in specifications; but it is perhaps the biggest difference between a cheap (or too small for the gig) HF section and one that sounds good without listener fatigue.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

If the story is true and I have the right tribe and my history isn't muddled... the Aztecs used to rip somebodies still beating heart out of they're chest once a night to appease the gods so that the sun would come up in the morning. They kept ripping and the sun kept rising. The connection was certain and obvious to them until the Spanish showed up and spoiled the party. They didn't figure out that what they were doing was pointless until they stopped doing it. Same situation here.

If you stop micro-twiddling the knobs how much will it affect the gross profits of the bar?

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Okay, who took my pants?

there are many jobs where we could make more money and have less stress than doing this. i'm pretty sure most of us got into this because we love music and singing. so for some of us, it is not just "microtweaking" for the sake of wasting energy, but because we can. if we have the ability to make it sound "that much better" to make it a bit more enjoyable for the patrons AND OURSELVES, than why should we not? i know that when I get everyting mixed just right, weather it's the perfect singer, song, and room and it sounds like the recording, or i manage to dial out some really nasties from a bad singers voice and make it palatable, i step back for a second and go "hell yeah". when i go home, i know i didn't do the best i felt like doing, i did the best i have the ability and knowledge to do. that to me, makes this job worth it.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

May not initially affect the "gross profits" but eventually I believe it would have a deleterious effect. I am able to draw in a group of people walking by because it sounds good. Ain't so true when there's a crappy band playing in the same venue on another night.

This is one of many scenarios that causes fatigue. Simple reflections can lead to the same phenomenon. A poorly eq'ed mix with far too much mid-range (the infamous ice-pick in the eye 2-2.5K range) can also be a cause of fatigue and ultimately headaches. Doesn't matter how great your compression drivers are, they can't correct for these issues. Reflections, we're stuck with, poor mixes, we can fix, and yes purchasing quality equipment will fix your scenario.

There are volumes written about environment design, system design and other strategies for avoiding fatigue. Let's not pretend for a minute that simply buying high quality gear will fix the problem.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Okay.

The location of speakers is often dictated to us and cannot be changed, and in such cases, the KJ is under similar constraints as most other entertainers at that venue.

The mobile KJ is certainly in control of what speakers they buy, though; so if their speakers are causing fatigue everywhere they are used, it's probably time to upgrade them (or not play so loud or roll the HF off way below 20k and live with it.)

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ