Karaoke Forums

KnightShow, you DO know I have the world's respect for you, and you wrote

OK, I do use Hoster, but please read IP Justice (and I quote)
http://www.ipjustice.org/karaokefairuse.shtml (Thanks to Dr. D)

Conclusion: Fair Use Protects CDG Owners :
The owners of Karaoke CDGs, facilities, mobile hosting services and consumers, have invested substantially in the purchase of large libraries of Karaoke CDGs. Allowing them to copy the contents of their CDGs for backup or format-shifting to hard drives would also be a fair use, and is entirely consistent both with the legislation on copying digital media passed to date, and with traditional fair use analysis ruled on by the US courts.

yeah, that's the swing of IPJUSTICE... and I happen to share it.

However, the commercial applications of the copyright Fair Use Act say that we are NOT allowed to make UNAUTHORIZED reproductions.

I personally agree with the IPJustice side of things... but it's YET to be successfully argued in court.

Now, you and I have the fact that we're legal purchasers of the karaoke product on our sides... and that's the only reason that the main copyright holders haven't gone after us. They may strutt and moan about illegal this and that, yet they've never came after me... I suspect MOSTLY cause I am online TELLING them I'm doing it, and HOW... AND that three main karaoke retailers know I purchase the stuff!

Matt

I think Nightshow has it right. If you purchase a CDG, you can copy it and use it or the copy. If you didn't buy the CDG, it is illegal for you to use for ANY PURPOSE.

If you purchased the CDG and are using the copy for commercial purposes, I think you're okay. But there is, to my knowledge, no case directly on point.

I've heard a lot of rumors about how Sound Choice has taken operators LIKE ME to court for doing exactly what I'm doing: purchasing the cdgs, but making a backup of it and USING the backups in my operation.

The rumors fly that either the cases have been dismissed or the court has ruled in favor of the operator... as they are STILL purchasing the material... and as long as they're running a 1:1 ratio, and NOT benefiting off the originals (i.e they ARE NOT in use MAKING MONEY at the same time as the copy or hard drive), then the court is satisfied.

HOWEVER, I've not found ONE single report of these cases. And Sound Choice is keeping quite mum over the whole thing.

Ultimately, I just follow my heart. And what my own heart and mind tells me is... "If I purchased the cdg, then I have the right to copy it and use the copy, to protect my original."

Matt

I agree with your analysis. If you paid, you ought to be able to use it.

I'm an IP lawyer, and I have seen any reported decisions. Copyright cases are almost exclusively handled in Federal Court. I think such a decision would get published.

If I run across any, I'll be sure and post them.

this is going to sound redundent but a copy is a copy. period. not one of us have license to duplicate the disks we buy although my life would be easier if we all could just burn up the 130,000 different disks that are out there, at least there would be a even playing field and we could all focus on sound quality which in my mind is more important than super libaries.

That's the problem - a copy isn't always a copy.

I can go onto IRC right now and download thousands and thousands of tracks to build a 'super-library'. Convert the MP3+g's to BIN (or even download the .BIN Files) and burn them to CD+g's. Ok, great. Now I have a HUGE library of burned CD's. This is illegal. It's theft, pure and simple. I didn't buy anything from anyone (other than the blanks). I have no right to own or use any of that data. This is a direct violation of federal copyright law - USC Title 17.

Under this same law I'm allowed certain rights. This includes something called Fair Use which would allow me to make a copy or convert the media to a format that is more condusive with my use of that data. It requires that I purchase the original data (in this case CD+G's, etc). This is not against the law. There is a caveat in the law regarding commercial use which is being fought back and forth. Based on the comments here earlier by an IP (Intellectual Property) lawyer none of these cases have been successfully argued by the labels - yet. This means that if I BUY a CD+G I can convert it to MP3+G or any other format I want. As much as all of the entertainment companies would like to get this part of the law removed it's not likely to happen anytime in the near future (although DRM (Digital Rights Management) has been an up and coming it's being pushed as 'new technology' and built in new products (forced on consumers) more so than by the law from what I've seen - Digital Millenium Copyright Act of 1998 aside).

Another right I have is the right to parody a work. A good example of this is the lyrics on most of the songs that Weird Al puts out, and the music on some other tracks (his polka songs use the original lyrics, his music - most of the other tracks use the music, but not the lyrics). Another example, perhaps a better one, would be the parody of 'Gone With the Wind' called 'The Wind Done Gone'. The original copyright owner filed a lawsuit which was subsequently thrown out because of the parody portion of USC 17 permitting the publishing of the work for profit.

Unfortunately, we deal with not one, but two facets in this business. We pay for the IP on media to use in a show then we pay licensing to play that music in a public venue. It's a legal minefield that many don't want to venture into.

FYI - I originally posted this question because while technically the copying of an out of print disc is illegal, the originating company isn't hurt (they're not selling the product anymore). The only person loosing out is the licensing companies and perhaps the artist. maybe if I just got the burned discs and sent the royalties in myself.....:roll:

FYIx2 - I am NOT a lawyer, I don't play one on TV. I am a computer security professional that has to understand copyright law as a function of my job. I also KJ part time because I have this crazy love of music, performing, watching people have a good time and no one wants to hear me play the clarinet (It sure wouldn't be a good time!).

Bigdaddy, I don't agree that "not one of us has a license to duplicate the discs we buy." In fact, we do. The copyright statute and cases promulgated thereto provide us just that right. There are definitely unsettled issues regarding how far that right extends. In fact, we also have the right to duplicate things we don't purchase at all, such as a t.v. or radio broadcast if we're just timeshifting (i.e., you wanted to watch or listen at time other than the broadcast time) -- whether you or your recorder can eliminate commercials is another unsettled question of law. You can also make copies of portions of books from the library so long as the amount copied is reasonable.

Don't buy into the rhetoric that the big corporations are selling.[/quote]

You're referring to 'fair use'. And indeed fair use applies to personal use for research or in creating a derivative work. You can copy an article for research, but not the entire book. Same for song clips - remember the fiasco with Vanilla Ice and 'Bohemian Rhapsody'? Sampling is ok, it's a derivative work where the original is a small part of the final product.

What hasn't been hashed out is the duplication of a work (in this case CD+G's) for a commercial entity for the sole purpose of protecting the original investment. It would sense that as long as you're not using the copies at the same time as the originals it would be permitted.Common sense would say, you bought 1000 discs, if you move them to another format/copy them to protect the original investment it's fair use. However, it hasn't been specifically addressed by the courts yet so it's open for interpretation. For more information read the comments by the IP attornet elsewhere on this board regarding what he's seen so far.

Yes, the companies throw a lot of 'FUD' (Fear Uncertainty Doubt) and some of it has a hint of truth. I'm interested to see what happens in the long run, but since we recently had a club shut down because of licensing issues I'll use my originals for now - and move to a computer setup as quickly as possible - and cite fair use if I'm every questioned.