Karaoke Forums

My dad is really into karaoke, and has a great system already, so now he wants the showy type of stuff for Christmas.

I looked at fog systems, and have seen some for around $100, and some for $300. Is there any difference between these systems? Anything I need to watch out for?

Regarding lighting--he has turned the garage into a karaoke studio, so he would maybe like something for a room about garage-sized, or maybe something for a bigger room if he takes his equipment to do a show. I looked at various light kits, but again--I really don't know what to look for.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you!

For me, as far as lights go, I'd go with lights that both cover the whole area (mushroom head, rotating, music triggered) and then a couple of things to light up certain areas; corner, wall up lighting. A disco ball is a must if there's dancing. I wouldn't go too crazy and I'd stay away from DMX if you're looking for easy and mostly hands free operation.

Then again, what do I know?

First off I would definetly only go with LED lights, they have become a lot more affordable, and are now a lot more "powerfull" (lghting wise) than they were just 2 years ago, plus most led bulbs are gauranteed for 50,000 to 100,000 hours and only sip electricity, no duty cycle either which means no "on 10 minutes off 10 minutes"

Keep it simple and go with the lights that are triggered by the beat of the music as enzoab has recommended and stay away from DMX, also as enzoad recommended.

I would get some type of wash lighting for the singing stage, preferrably behind the singer and then maybe something like an ADJ or Chauvet mushroom type or ADJ Agressor.

I agree with enzoab that for a dance floor the good old tried and true mirror (disco) ball cannot be beat, so very versatile and the effects can be changed simply by position and location of your pinspot(s). I use both a Chauvet pinspot and an ADJ pinspot producing two very different effects.

Many on here will recommend doing your lights in pairs, but I think in your fathers case, at least for in the garage, that rule of thumb could be set aside.

Personally I don't like or use fog and I don't think many bars would allow it either.

Shopping for lights can be fun...enjoy it.

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Music speaks to the heart in ways words cannot express.

All what RLC states is spot on, for me anyway. I forgot the fog thing. Nah, I'd stay away for this for this venure. I use one if it works for a gig, I even use a bubble machine, but in every case, it's gotta fit the gig. This is a static venue so, way not set it up easy and affordable so you can concentrate on the music and sounds and let the lights do their funky thing and use the extra money to add more tracks to your foundation.

I agree ....LED's and Lazers are the only way forward....BUT...U REALLY do need Smoke with them........LED's naturally have LITTLE Beam...a fogger shows the beam up.........JUST GET THE adjustable one tho...you don't want it flooding the venue.....just the occasional PUFF is sufficient......

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This post is a little bit off the topic but yet similar in application.

Last New Year's Eve, a DJ friend went to a DJ rentals to rent a fog machine, but they were all rented out. So, he rented a Pro-Bubble/Fog machine instead. It will emit bubbles and when it pop it turns into fog/smoke. They were nice to look at and they're great special effects changing colors especially when the disco lights were activated. Disadvantage: They do get a bit messy and slippery.

Bubble is made of soapy water-based liquid and when they burst, they leave a thin wet film on the floor. Multiply that and you get a messy and slippery dance floor. Not to mention droppings on their hair and clothes. Some dancers were tripping on the dance floor. I told him don't use it anymore. One hour to midnight we have to call the staff to mop the floor, waited to dry out before we can resume dancing again. Strong liquid mix maybe?

OK Foggers first. I wouldn't even bother with one for any public gigs, most places don't like or don't allow them. The cheap ones don't last very long, to get a fogger that's going to have any real longevity, you're talking in the $500-600 range. So if you do want one for in the garage, I'd say keep it there and get yourself a decent one (i.e. more expensive). Also make sure you maintain it (clean it when it will be sitting for more than a week without use).

On the lighting side, the advice you've gotten so far sucks. Mushrooms, effects, all that jazz is for lighting a dance floor, not a live performance. Also putting wash lighting behind the singer (upstage) is a horrible plan unless you've already got downstage lighting (lights in front of the singer) that will illuminate your subject. Putting lighting behind the subject without lights from in front focused on them turns them into nothing more than a black shadow when you view them from the "audience" position. Seriously lame.

LED's are great except when using fog. Believe it or not, fog relies on the heat from the par can lighting to draw it up into the air. When using fog, what you don't want is a layer of fog along the floor with nothing above. The point of fog is to create a haze in the air so that you can see the beams from the lights. Any Lighting Director worth a salt that is using LED's is using a hazer not a fog machine. Hazers produce just a thin "haze" that doesn't need air flow to keep it airborne. So if you go LED, you're going to want to go Hazer instead of fog machine although I'll warn you Hazers are much more expensive.

My recommendation, some simple PAR 38's or 48's mounted downstage (in front of the stage pointing back at the stage). Mount them on either side of where the singer will be. You should have 1 on each side that has no colored gel (or a neutral density gel is best) pointed where the singer will be to illuminate them. Then you can add additional lights on each side with colored gels that should be pointed to the area behind the singer. If you're going to use LED's for this, you're going to need a controller so you can keep the solid "white" lights static on the singer or mix in a couple incandescent par's for just that purpose and use LED's for the colored lights. Since this is a live performance situation, lighting the singer should be your number one priority.

After that, if you have a dance floor you wish to light, this is where you can look at all the effects, scanners, lazers and mirror balls. Go nuts, I do recommend buying in pairs if you want it to look pro, but if you just want to get some cool lighting and don't really care how it looks then just get what looks fun to you.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Tony just gave some great advice. I agree with what he said. As far as fog, everytime I've tried to use it in a public place, people will complain. I just did a halloween party, karaoke/dj, and in the spirit of halloween I thought it would be cool to use fog for a little halloween special effects. Welll as usual, people complained to the owner. Some people have breathing problems, asthma, or just hate the smell of fog or maybe it makes their eyes water. Whatever the reason, more people hate it than like it.

So, while we may look at things differently, I have found that unless you're doing a concert, fog does not work for 99% of the venues that we will do. For lighting for a dance floor, my advice is to look for lighting effects that look good without fog. I personally use (among others) 2 Chauvet Swarms (ADJ equivilent is Tri Phase). Thay light up the dance floor beautifully with a large coverage and bright lights. And they look great without fog.

So, there are many alternatives to fog. Good luck.

I'm new to lighting and was curious as to why two different people recommended against DMX? I thought that was the standard interface for lighting control? What's wrong with it?

There is nothing "wrong" with DMX (in this context.) They are just advising you to buy fixtures that have useful automatic / activate-to-music / master-slave operation modes. If you have to actually press buttons and such to make them do something useful, you won't really have time to do that as a KJ, since you will be multi-tasking enough already with song slips, mixing, talking to patrons, and so on.

Many fixtures have both options, DMX and some kind of sound-activated / automatic feature. Many DMX controllers can advance chases to the musical beat as well; but you have to set them up to do so.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

Oh ok. Thanks for the 'splanation. I thought DMX had some sort of automatic / pre-programming capabilities so you can set up the lights to follow a certain pattern ahead of the show or in a certain sequence in time to the music but perhaps this is not the case?

DMX requires you to have a controller of some fashion. DMX is the only way you can control most of the intelligent lighting these days outside of using each fixture's own automatic modes (or in some cases a linkable mode where one fixture controls the others). However, if you get a decent DMX controller, most of them do also have sound activated modes. All you need then is the patience to program your scenes and you can have the controller automatically switch between them.

So I'd agree, you don't want to be stuck having to be at the lighting controls the whole night, but you don't necessarily need to stay away from DMX to make that happen.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

I don't think there is a reason to say "stay away from DMX". On the contrary, I'd be more inclined to say go for it. The only consideration I'd give for not recommending DMX controlled lighting is that "stand-alone" non-DMX fixtures are most likely to be less expensive.

Most DMX fixtures I have looked at also have an automatic and/or sound-activated mode so they can be run without a controller. If the extra expense of a DMX fixture is not a problem, I'd say go for it! If it were mainly for mobile karaoke, I'd probably say the opposite, but since this is primarily for home garage use, DMX control could give your dad a few more options for getting more enjoyment out of his system. Even if he initially just uses a sound-activated light show, having the ability to use DMX in the future could be desirable.

Home karaoke is far different from the public variety, and one of the main differences is the number of songs that are sung. One of the advantages of DMX is the ability to tailor specific lighting sequences to particular songs and this can be done with either a specific stand-alone or PC-based controller (eg. www.showmagic.com).

As a starter, my suggestion would be as stated above... two par cans IN FRONT and facing back to the singer with fixed white light, and two par cans aimed behind as back wash.

LED lights give the ability to colour-change without the need for multiple fixtures/gels, and would be my preference.

Really, it comes down to budget and what/how you want to light. Just a look at any lighting web site can make the mind boggle at all the possibilities. Check this out:

http://www.elationlighting.com/ProductC ... x?MainId=1


Fog/haze adds good beam effect, but should be used in a room with good ventilation. Does a garage provide good ventilation?

I've never had any good luck with expensive fog machines, I have 2 sitting in my garage with either burned out pumps. The manu calls them "Hazers" but I don't see a difference. One's an antari, the others a chavuet, I'm in my robe right now and have 0 interest in going out there for model numbers. It's chilly.

These were used every night, and at the end of the night I would run a solution of water and vinager through them (teaspoon of vinager to a gallon of water) to clean them out. For both machines I bought the manu's "Special" fog juice. Chavuets was cheap, antari's was like $54@gallon.

Both ran 5 hours a night, lasted about 3 months till the pumps burned out. Neither manu offers rebuild kits for the machines, so you're screwed after they break (unless you want to send the unit back for them to work on, $$$)

As a lot of others have said, customers complain a lot. Most of the glory hole type singers love it, it's usually the soccer moms complaining.

Sorry to post and run yesterday; internet is really crappy where I am. Anyway, I wanted to thank everyone for the info and suggestions. I didn't know that most places won't let you use fog, so I think I'll stick to lighting for now.

Thanks everyone!

Also, fog machine can trigger fire alarms in certain public places so be aware of that. Instead, people I know use hazer rather than fog machines. It provided best of fog machines without the side effects.

Also, for Halloween, there is a little trick you can use. Instead of letting the fog go everywhere, you can run it through a tube that goes through a drum that contains dry ice. When the fog comes out from the other side, it's cold so it hugs the floor. Looks very cool.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

Agree.

In my not so humble opinion, buy the Chauvet 4-BAR LED setup for your Dad. I use it and love it. He will as well.

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/pr ... sku=817159

That second picture (the one with the two ladies and purple/pink lighting) is an example of exactly what you should be trying to avoid. Notice how they're nothing more than shadows disappearing into the dim light? That's fine when it's 50 anonymous souls on a dance floor. When you're talking about a live performance you want to draw focus to the performer by ensuring they stand out.

Here's a shot from one of my shows that demonstrates the type of effect you should be going for, especially when you have no fog. Now at this gig, I'm fortunate enough to have a wall with a large projector screen on the back so it really reflects the colors, but this works even on wood paneling or other coverings.

This whole effect is accomplished with two downstage (in front of the singer) lighting trees on either side of the stage. However the same can be done with a single tree which I've had to do in some bars. I have a no color par 38 with a spot bulb focused on the area where the singers will be (i.e. right in front of the monitor). I then have 4 other lamps with 3 colors focused at the back wall and a sound activated controller switching between color scenes. The singer is very visible and stands out from the background yet you can also see the colors changing with the music behind him (slow fade times, low sensitivity). This shot was taken with no flash so it's about as close to what you see in real life as it can get.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

I had a (live sound) customer pay another company to bring out just lights for a small show a few months ago. The guy brought four Chauvet 4BARs and placed them around the stage. After that gig, the customer never complained about the lighting I provide again! I'm sure those things have a use, but the beam angle is quite broad and they are no brighter than a PAR64 1w*36, which is smaller, lighter, and cheaper than a 4BAR.

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Jeff Wheeler, moonlight DJ/KJ

The difference between a foger and a hazer is that the hazer
uses a fan to disperse the fog.

If you have a Foger and want a Hazer, adding a fan is all you need to do.
Then fluid density is your next consideration.