Karaoke Forums

So I was all set to reprint with spiral bound, unprotected sheets as an experiment to see how long they would last that way. Then last night I watched a table of 20-somethings totally abuse a few binders.

I guess I want to hear from people who are using the spiral bound books and what kind of venues they are used in, and how long they appear to be lasting. I understand that using spiral bound will require reprints more often but to reprint on my own laser printer and have them bound for $3/apiece is not too bad an expense.

Question is if the book is more delicate, will they receive more delicate treatment? Or will they get turned back on themselves, set down on a wet table, etc., etc. ? I have a ton of singers who love to STILL peruse the book after all these years so I'm not interested in totally stopping the book option.

I am also setting up a laptop with a mouse and a search function on a 'read only' file of the book so people who are only interested in finding their music and filling out their slips, then getting back to socializing, have the option of not having a book sitting in front of them. I noticed people actually taking the binders off their tables and placing them somewhere else...

Phew, what to do....

I have used spiral bound books in the past, but now I use comb bound books (which are basically the same).

I highly suggest that you laminate the covers (front & back). Staples does this for $1.50 a sheet and it is very durable. I actually am going to buy my own laminator because that is a bit pricey.

Maybe shouldn't reply as we have never gone spiral bound but I did make a "New Songs" book in just a report folder with no page protectors and it only lasted a month before it got completely soaked. The fellow who did it was not at all a rowdy and actaually brought it to me, apologizing profusely. It just took one accidental knock of a drink and enough splashed out to ruin the book.

Don't some of the spiral bound people have their pages laminated?

Sounds like you are NOT going to laminate the pages?

In my bar, unlaminated books would last approximately one show. SOMEONE spills SOMETHING on one of my books at each show, without fail.

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C Mc
KJ, FL

I just had my books spiral bound. They've only been used for two shows so far. They are significantly cheaper for me than regular binders. The venue they are used at doesn't seem too rowdy, so maybe they'll last awhile. Laminating the pages is not an option because of the cost involved. This is kind of an experiment for me.

With printing on both sides, the books are much, much smaller and easier to transport than the binder/sheet protector thing, as well as being less than half the cost.

We never used spiral bound, always plastic duotang covers. They last long and easy to add new arrivals. If we get a spill on our non-laminated pages, we just let them air dry overnight and no problems.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

I use spiral bound books. I've lost perhaps 10 pages per book over the last 2 years for the main books. Fewer on my yearly update book. I printed 10 and use 3 of them for private events so they are not beat up at all.

While I hear the horror stories I haven't lost a single book yet to a beer purge. My show has around 35 singer/night average with peaks into the mid 40s running for 5 hours, so it's not a slow show. They've held up just fine.

Pros:
Easy to get done at any print shop
No real worries about lost pages
Lighter than ring binders with page protectors
Smaller form factor
Folding over makes them easy to use on bar top tables or on your lap

Cons:
Cost about $13/book
Hard to update
Lost pages impossible to replace
Must have a print shop do the work

Personally I'll never stuff a binder again and will stay with the spiral bound.

Your mileage may vary <shrug>

Will take this into consideration. I hate stuffing binders but also question how dedicated I will be to scanning through spiral bounds every week to make sure pages are all there, not stuck together or finding print having bled all over. Six o'one, half a dozen o' the other I guess.

I guess I'm a bit immune to the total cost of books. I print mine at work on their industrial printers, then stuff the page protectors at home myself, mostly reusing the page protectors from my old books. For 3-ring binders, there are plenty of sites online that sell binders that are twice the quality of your average big box office supply store and also half the price.

My total out-of-pocket cost per book is around $8-10, and I re-do them pretty much once a year.

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C Mc
KJ, FL

They have a nice, tactile feel when you rip out the pages. Makes kind of a nice brppPPT sound.

There are so many iphones and androids out there now. Just upload your songlist somewhere and give them the url.

I use a laser jet printer that prints on both sides. I have a laminator I bought on ebay for $50 that I laminate my business logo and name and either artitst/song title on the front of the books. I get my laminatiing sheets at

http://www.jhlaminating.com/


No way I would pay someone else to do it if one beer spill makes it look bad.

I'm just about set for a total book print for my 6 books. Bought a lot of cdgs in the last couple months. I will buy an extra packet of copy paper, already have a backup toner and protective sleeves. All set!

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

+Time. At a gig I make about $50/hr minus expenses so let's say I clear $30/hr. Last time I did them it took me roughly 5 hours to do 10 books, $150 or $15/book plus printing costs 9can't remember if they were $.05 or $.10/page). When I found I could print them and have them bound for less than the time cost of stuffing pages I jumped on it.

I suppose time is a commodity we all value differently. I have a regular job that eats a lot of my time so I'm a bit more sensitive where I use any free time.

<Edit> One other thing: If you run your pages on a copier or laser printer there is no ink to smear so you won't cry over spilt beer (literally ).

Again I can only speak for how it works out for me. Your mileage may vary.

I print my own books laser printer and use card stock covers and then staple the books together (using five staple points. If you laminate the covers the life of the book will exceed five years (too long) if you don't they will last about a year in fair condition. if a cover gets ruined you simply pull the staples and restaple a new set of covers on them. As far as the books getting wet they do from time to time, you just set it out and let it dry no problem. Using spiral and comb bindings, well I tried that and the life of the books run about 3 months. With Spiral or comb bindings it is too easy for pages to be ripped out, using staples the pages have to be deliberately torn out as the staples hold the pages tightly together. Another advantage is the book will "self close" if left on a table.

My first books were 3 ring binders with each page tucked into a 'page protector'.. they were a pain to put together, but pretty re-usable when you needed to update books.

They weren't impervious to spill damage.. many times i'd go through the books and find beer had been spilled INSIDE the plastic page protector.

A few years ago I went to spiral bound books. I get them with a clear front cover, and a solid black back cover.

More expensive on a per book basis than traditional 'three ring binder' books, but they look way more professional, and are easier to read.

They do take abuse, though.. and interestingly enough, more prone to outright theft.

I play packed venues with 21 to 35 year olds.. party crowds.. between vandals, accidents, and outright theft, I loose on average about 4 books a year.

But.. if I were updating my books every 3 to 6 months like I should, then that wouldn't be a problem.

My first books were spiral bound and I'll never go back to that again. They didn't last at all. Pages got accidentally and intentionally ripped out really quickly. There's no way to add additional pages. Stuff gets spilled on them and ruins the whole book. People write graffiti on the pages. The metal spiral binding gets bent and the pages don't open nicely anymore. All this from about 2-3 months of use before I said enough and went to 3 ring binders with sheet protectors.

Yes the spiral bound looks a lot nicer and more professional, but they stop looking so professional once they've seen some wear and tear. Where those lasted 2-3 months, my binders last 8-12 and the pages inside I haven't had to replace yet (other than maybe a few sheet protectors that wore out after years of use). If a binder wears out, I take the pages out put them in a new binder and it looks brand new. With the spiral binding you've gotta get the who book reprinted and rebound. No thanks.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

My approach won't work for everyone, but I decided I wanted to 1) avoid having to stuff pages because I don't have the time and 2) wanted to reduce cost and bulk. So I reduced my listings. I included:

1. All songs ever sang at one of my shows (from Compuhost History)
2. All songs in SC Foundation 1 & 2
3. All songs in past 5 years of Pop Hits disks I have
4. All songs in CB Essentials 1-8
5. All songs downloaded (basically my whole Zoom, Sunfly, SBI collection)
6. All songs from certain very popular artists (Taylor Swift,Lady Antebellum,Sugarland, Carrie Underwood, George Strait, Randy Travis, Johnny Cash, Reba, Patsy Cline, Bon Jovi, Jimmy Buffet, Neil Diamond, Miranda Lambert et al)
7. Handpicked song list for Sinatra, Elvis, and the Beatles

(I am not sure it would be that easy for a lot of people to do that -- I basically wrote a computer program that reduced the song list while still retaining mfr info. I don't know how you would do it manually.)

Ended up being about 4000 songs (out of my nearly 11,000 unique). It made for a 112-page artist book and a 124-page title book, which means 50-60 sheets double-sided. I had them "perfect" bound so you can't easily tear out pages, with laminated covers. This binding method is basically glue like a book.

I also picked up a tip here that the best way to operate books is to keep them at the KJ station. If you leave them on the tables, they become part of the furniture and get mistreated. Somehow if people have to go get them, they get treated better.

There is an asterisk by every singer who has more songs that are not listed. I also put this on the front cover.

This has held up well. I had 6 artist and 2 title books done, for about $100. I am on my third annual printing. People seem to find things to sing, and they feel free to come ask if there is something they want but isn't in there.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I've never done anything but spiral bound.

My original set of 5 artist and 5 title books were printed on #25 paper which is tear resistant and moisture resistant. I used heavy card stock with a 3 mil laminate for the front cover and a vinyl back cover. The books lasted over a year and a half. At 160 sheets and with the premium binding those books cost about $50 apiece to produce.

The second set of books printed in the same manner lasted just about as long but with the expanded song collection, the price had gone up to about $70 per book.

This year, I'm only printing Artist books because if someone can remember a title, they can always google it for the artist or search my kiosk.

I went with normal paper and clear covers. I used a three column setup without disc numbers and reduced the sheet count by 50%. So, 80 sheets, 23,000+ listings and plain paper and covers, books now cost $17.80 each to print. I've printed 12 since January 1st and 3 have disappeared on me.

They have gotten wet in the bar environment, but they usually dry without major damage. I make a point to collect them and wipe them down like menus, checking for damage and/or missing pages.

I don't know that I will ever totally forgo printing books, but when the 10" tablets become dollar store commodities, I'll probably switch to electronic publishing.

First, i don't feel the need to include updates in my books... i barely need the books. I don't use song slips either. I use compuhost, so if they want to know if I have a song they just ask. (I don't have books by song either. If you know the song, you're done!)

I reprint my spirals every 6 to 8 months, and they last just fine. I use heavy cardstock and have it heavily laminated front and back, and that's it. (the pages themselves are 20lb paper so i can print front and back)


To me, the songbooks are there for suggestion only, to get the newbies and the timid up, but i don't really need them. Some shows they sit there and never get used as people just come up and ask me if i have their song.

So, for the way i run my show, spiral books are just fine, and the stack flat and are much more convenient to move from show to show, they take up less space on the bar and are easier to use for the singer.

So for me, they are a must.

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Good music, good friends, howling good times!

fffff

I am so tired of answering if I have a song or not when the darn things are in the book. I am hoping by printing a pared down book, no dupes, no disc numbers, just one by artist and one by song title, that people won't come up and ask me. I am prepared either way - have it down to about 92 or 94 pieces of paper (printed both sides) - will do some spiral bound, will do some in sheet protectors in binders, will have the lappy sitting there for express lookup, and I would imagine I'll STILL have to answer questions for people who don't know alpha order. When I am running a large rotation I don't need someone standing there staring at me waiting for me to stop what I'm doing to answer if I have "Crazy" by Patsy Cline. UGGG.