Karaoke Forums

so this is my first post here, I am looking into starting a new karaoke/DJ business. I have about 10K to use as startup capital, and well, Im looking for any tips I can get.

some history, I live in Michigan, I am an avid karaoke singer, and I have a pretty good knowledge of both musical equipment, and computers. so im okay there, and most of the KJs around my area either use pirated music, Junk equipment, or both, so the going rate is pretty low. I want to offer a better alternative. I'm looking into offering DVD recordings of people singing (working on a letter to chartbusters, soundchoice, sunfly, etc. to check on how much a license for that will cost me) I hope to be up and running by mid summer of this year (doing all the research I can before I spend almost half of my annual salary into this)

a couple things I was wondering are:

1. What is your opinions on making my company an LLC (to facilitate business insurance on equipment, and to reduce any personal liability)

2. what are your opinions on songbook editing...ie. what shouldn't i include in my books as a new KJ?

3. any other tips you guys/gals have will be greatly appreciated

My advice would be to try and find an existing KJ looking to get out of the biz and buy his existing catalog and gear.

With the average 'bar gig' rate your average legit KJ can expect to get for a 4 hour show landing somewhere between $125 and $175, if you're going to have that big of an initial cash outlay, you'll want to probably try and focus on private parties, weddings, corporate events, gigs like that.

Unless you know some people in bar management locally, it's tough to crack into the weekly bar KJ biz.

Just walking in with a letter from SoundChoice saying your a legal KJ and going on about your top of the line gear isn't going to impress bar managers who hear that same song and dance 4 times a week.

They generally focus on price and what kind of following you have. Since you're just starting out, you won't have any demonstrable following or business/trade name name recognition.. so now you're left with price.. and stuck competing with the low dollar pirate KJ's willing to do the gig for $50 a night.

You're faced with the challenging task of convincing the club that what you do is well worth the $75+ more a night you'll charge over the other guy.

And keep in mind.. it's not just pirates. I know a older gal who carries a half dozen milk crates full of CD folders into a gig.. all legit, original discs from a variety of manus. She's running a crappy PA, and may not have all the latest music, but she has several weekly gigs at $65 a night.. and her crowds of predominantly older, serious hardcore singers, don't seem to care at all if her rig is state of the art.

Just so long as they can sing their favorite Tex Ritter or Frank Sinatra song, they could care less if it's an SM58 or a PG48 they're singing into.

interestingly enough I have already had a couple bar owners ask when I will have all my stuff, and I didn't tell them I was getting into the business, so they must have heard it elsewhere. I know quite a few local bar owners pretty well, and I don't want to sound egotistical but they figure if i work I'll bring the wife along, and she has a great voice, which has brought her a bit of a karaoke following, she gets calls every weekend asking if she is going out to sing and if so where, so any time we go out we bring at least an extra 10-15 people to the bar with us. So I'm thinking getting the gigs won't be insanely difficult, figure i can always offer a couple free shows to sweeten a deal if I have to.

as far as finding someone looking to get out, I'm looking into it as far as a library goes, but not equipment. Seriously the crap they use, if I bought it my only use for it would be fuel for a bonfire.

A (KJ's)wife with a great singing voice can be a major let down to many regular karaoke singers. Be very careful about how you want to 'use' her to promote your gig. It can backfire.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

For $10K, i'd probably opt for the SC GEM series - 6,000 non-duplicated songs, then fill in the gaps with PHM & CB with some of the more current sets. About $6-6.5K for a very nice core with current stuff.
The rest i'd put into the PA system. Good pro type system, not stuff 'made for karaoke'. Good mixer (Mackie, Allen & Heath, Yamaha), some good powered speakers (QSC/JBL/Mackie/Yorkville), and maybe some good processing - dbx Driverack is always a nice piece. Mics - Shure SM58's, Sennhesier 835 or the likes. Karaoke programs are plentiful, download the demos & decide which is easier for yourself and will fit your needs. My preference is MTU Hoster over anything else (this opinion will vary).
Agree with the wife statement, as long as she isn't the 'featured' singer or singing out of turn or unusually more with others (duets) than anyone else. You don't want any 'play favorite' reputation especially starting out.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

$10k is not nearly enough to start up a decent business unless you use $10k on equipment and just buy a $200 loaded hard drive for music.

Seriously? I'd say quite the opposite. It's a refreshing breath of fresh air to have someone come in here looking to get into the business who isn't trying to figure out how to do it for $2000 or less.

I like Lon's plan a lot. $6500 on the GEM series and that leaves you another $3500 for PA which is more than enough. I would recommend the used market for PA gear. That way if you get into this and decide you don't like it, you can sell it off for pretty much what you bought it for. PA Gear value takes a big hit once it goes from new to used status, but after that it devalues very slowly. A mixer and some powered speakers will get you a long way. Set a plan for yourself too, remember you don't need to buy everything right away. Get higher quality full range speakers and you can add subs later. Start with wired mics to begin and then down the road if you want to look into wireless go there.

For your mixer, get one with effects built in. That way you apply reverb to the vocals day one. Down the road if you want to get a higher quality outboard unit, you can add that in later. A laptop with sufficient capacity to host Karaoke should only run you $400-600 (less if you go refurb). If you want to use a player instead, they can be had for about half that range but the direction of karaoke is definitely toward computer based hosting.

Don't forget as you're looking at PA that you'll need a lot of "little things" whose prices add up quick. Speaker stands, mic stands (if you intend to use them), mic and patching cables, a tv monitor and stand of some fashion along with all the connectivity to that as well, etc. I strongly recommend setting out a list of everything you need first, then putting the prices together, and figure out your budget from there. Don't do what I've seen others do and start buying gear and then get to the end of your initial investment and realize there are still some key pieces you need.

Regarding your other questions:
1. What is your opinions on making my company an LLC (to facilitate business insurance on equipment, and to reduce any personal liability)

Depending on your state laws this may or may not be necessary. The federal government allows you to run a business using your SSN as the Tax ID. Some states however require a business license at which point for many of them you need a Federal Tax ID for your business. Registering an LLC only costs $100 and besides the liability factors is a nice way to help separate your business affairs from your personal affairs.

2. what are your opinions on songbook editing...ie. what shouldn't i include in my books as a new KJ?

I only include the Name of the song, the artist and an ID number that I assign. Some KJ's like to include the original disc number an track number so that more savvy singers can identify the manufacturer of the song. Many KJ's will say don't list duplicate songs. I do list them because that way my repeat singers can find the version of their favorite song that they like best and always request that one. It makes for a bigger song book (i.e. more expensive to print) but my singers do appreciate it.

Hope that helps.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

The one thing I'm surprised no one mentioned. You most likely CAN NOT offer singers a DVD of their performances in your commercial karaoke show. This would not only be copyright infridgement of the karaoke manufacturers, but also of the original artists and whoever owns their masters. The companies that you do see doing this are likely illegal, as the licensing to redistribute these songs for profit is very cost prohibitive. The karaoke manufacturers pay somewhere along the lines of $2,000 - 10,000 PER SONG for commercial redistribution rights. If this is going to be your "gimmick," you might want to rethink it.

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C Mc
KJ, FL

I think that's because he said


and that he was

Original artists have nothing to do with anything. Songwriters should, but I sincerely doubt they get anywhere near $2,000 - $10,000 per song on a flat rate. They might get prepaid royalties, of course, but those are going to be in the 0.40 per copy realm at most.

All of this has exactly nothing to do with anything, of course, because the performance you are redistributing is the one by the musicians at the karaoke studio. I am guessing Chartbuster and SoundChoice are very happy to let you license this at a reasonable cost, because they would otherwise get nothing. For the songwriter, the amount of royalty would be minimal and I suspect that SC and Chartbuster would agree to record that royalty as a part of a deal. If not, a license could be had from ASCAP/BMI for not much.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

ASCAP/BMI only represent the PERFORMANCE (the grey areas of Fair Use) of copyrighted material. Likewise, all of the karaoke manufacturers buy licensing and distribution rights to be able to commerically profit from the sale of copyrighted material. The OP would have to buy the EXACT same redistribution rights (Master Use License, Mechanical Reproduction License, AND Digital Phonorecord Distribution License ) to distribute DVDs of performances. It is no longer just a "performance" when you put it on media and try to distribute it.

None of the karaoke manufacturers OR ASCAP/BMI have anywhere near the right to grant permission for someone else to distribute the copyrighted materials for profit. That'd be like saying you can sell Taylor Swift CDs you make yourself because you recorded them off your jukebox and pay the BMI fees.

The reproduction and distribution rights are typically owned by the original artists/songwriters (only typical in highly paid, established hitmakers) and/or record companies/whoever owns the master recordings.

If I write a hit song, you can't go out and record the same song and put it on you record and sell that record.

Soundchoice or BMI can't sell you persmission to go out and record the same song and put it on you record and sell that record.

Well, unfortunately, what the OP is suggesting does not fall into the category of PERFORMANCE that is licenced to the karaoke manufacturers and ASCAP/BMI. What he is proposing, taking copyrighted material and commerically selling it on discs, falls under DISTRIBUTION, and it is a WHOLE different level than PERFORMANCE. PERFORMING something someone else owns (karaoke, cover band, jukebox, etc.) is one thing, but the second you put that performance down on a distribution media and use that for profit, that is a WHOLE other thing. Do you think people who put songs in movies, video games, commercials, etc. just get permission from the karaoke manus or pay a small royalty to ASCAP/BMI? Of course not, and what the OP wants to do falls under the same category.

And, yes, it is going to be either cost prohibitive or illegal for the OP to record and distribute DVD copies of songs to his singers, unless he is prepared to sell thousands of them for about $15-20 a pop. One of the SoundChoice reps said that all legal karaoke manus pay 8.5 cents per track per disc with a minimum order of a 500 unit licence PER TRACK for distribution rights and the reproduction licensing. That's BEFORE the one-time Master Use Licence fee PER TRACK, which is a negotiable amount. So, the OP is going to have to buy the same minimum 500 unit licensing ($42.50 per track) for each unique track he intends to record and commercially distribute if he intends on being legal. Go do some research at http://www.harryfox.com/index.jsp.

This topic has been covered over and over again on copyright boards, and it has NOTHING to do with the typical kind of PERFORMANCE/Fair Use issues, SYNC copyrights, and TRADEMARK infridgement we typically deal with in the karaoke world. This falls under REPRODUCTION, LICENSING and DISTRIBUTION.

This is making a commercial profit off a cover version of a song that you don't own the rights to without expressed written consent to do so (and the $$$ it takes to get that consent).

Ever wonder why the karaoke manus don't sue the hard drive distributers? It is because the karaoke manus don't wholly own the distribution rights to their songs, so they can't claim that much damage for what the hard drive producers are doing. The karaoke manus only have an "expressed use" clause that grants them permission to distribute songs under exact circumstances. If they were to sue the hard drive distributors, they would only be a VERY small slice of the civil suit pie. The most interested party would be the owner of the distribution and reproduction rights. So, the karaoke manus stick to suing for something they DO actually own and can claim 100% damages on - their trademark.

DISTRIBUTION and PERFORMANCE are two VERY different animals in the copyright world!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

2. what are your opinions on songbook editing...ie. what shouldn't i include in my books as a new KJ?

I only include the Name of the song, the artist and an ID number that I assign. Some KJ's like to include the original disc number an track number so that more savvy singers can identify the manufacturer of the song. Many KJ's will say don't list duplicate songs. I do list them because that way my repeat singers can find the version of their favorite song that they like best and always request that one. It makes for a bigger song book (i.e. more expensive to print) but my singers do appreciate it.

Hope that helps.

I obviously didn't get that Rip. You assign an ID number. How do the singers know what manu that is if they are specifically requesting a particular manu?

I cut out the dupes. My dupes = about 40% of my library. I'm to the point of being very particual now when buying older cdgs.

$10,000 is a good number for starting out. You've gotten some good advice. Be interesting to hear how things start out for you.

I've been out of the regular bar gig business for over a year now, done a few here and there but mostly private parties and making better money at it! I am hosting for a new place and with my work schedule being more flexible, maybe I'll stick with this one til I move up north.

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

Oh, you can't? Sure you can. You just need to license it from the songwriter. And if I perform a songwriter's song and make a hit out of it, what claim do I have on a different performance of the same song? None at all.

And for recording small numbers of the vast majority of songs? Talk to the Harry Fox Agency. The most you are going to have to pay is $85.00 per song, and that buys you 1,000 prepaid royalties. In lots of cases, you can get it for less for special use. And most songs that have already been released you don't even need to get mechanical rights. You still owe royalties, but you should be able to go to the MPA for those. And you don't need to have rights if you can't find them via the above -- you just have to publish a "Notice of Intent".

I researched some of this just now, but I knew it was the case. If it weren't this way, the music industry would be stopped cold in its tracks.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Exactly.....a minimum of $42.50 per song for 500 distribution licences for every UNIQUE song the OP wants to distribute on DVD as part of his commerical operation.

Cost prohibitive to be legal!



And did you read the rest of my post, or just take this piece out of context? Of course you can do this if you get the proper permissions and pay the proper fees. That was my point, you can't just go use other people's intellectual property for commercial gain without going through the proper channels. The OP will have to go through the proper channels, and it is cost-prohibitive to do so.

And, in most cases, recording artists and songwriters that are not mega stars DO NOT own all of the rights to thier own songs. They may own portions, but in most cases, the record company owns the master recordings and publishing rights, so you also have to go through them for most everything.

The first thing the star acts negotiate once they have become a household brand name after the end of their first contract is ownership of their publishing rights, and the first thing mega stars go after is their masters, but this is less than 10% of the artists/songwriters out there.

I think I remember that Bob Dylan or maybe Ray Charles was the first artist in history to actually own their own masters, and the entire list from all of recorded history is pretty small, though it is becoming more common over the last few years.

The Beatles don't even own their own publishing, licensing, mechanical, sych, and print rights, they only maintain control of their performance rights, which is what companies like BMI/ASCAP represent. Sony and the Michael Jackson estate owns all of the other rights, and pays a 50% kickback royalty to the Beatles as part of the sales aggreement. The Beatles sold these rights to get out of the 90% tax bracket in Great Britain, because the royalty flows through a corporation, and is paid as a capital gain at a lower tax rate, while their original rights were treated as regular income.

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C Mc
KJ, FL

You are talking about the recordings themselves. Apparently you are confused, as nothing we are talking about has anything to do with "the masters" or any of that.

Suffice it to say, don't listen to us there is some better info:

http://www.cleverjoe.com/articles/music ... t_law.html

It would cost you $85.00 at most, and most likely you could work a blanket deal out with MPA for much less when you consider that you are only licensing one copy.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Sure it does. Plain and simple, if OP makes DVDs of performances of songs, they are not covered under "fair use" and Performance licences.

FACT #1:

The OP would be using these for commercial gain just by being a part of his commercial show, even if he gives them away for free.

FACT #2:

By buying a CDG, the OP only gets a PERFORMANCE LICENCE to the songs on that disc.

FACT #3:

The SECOND the OP puts the performances of his CDGs onto a DVD (production)and gives them to his singers (distribution), he has now gone BEYOND the scope of his performance license and is infridging on the DISTRIBUTION and PRODUCTON licenses of whoever owns those licences on the song.

FACT #4:

BMI, ASCAP, and the karaoke CDG manufacturer DO NOT own the DISTRIBUTION and PRODUCTION licences to the songs. The karaoke manu has a contract from the owners of these licences to use these songs for the explicit purpose detailed in the contract. BMI and ASCAP represent the owner of the PERFORMANCE LICENCE of the song, and collect royalties on ONLY that aspect.

FACT #5:

The OP can not produce and distribute performances of copyrighted material without paying for the production and distribution rights, which is a cost-prohibitive venture for a single rig karaoke host.

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C Mc
KJ, FL

Do not listen, this is complete BS!

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

He mentioned he was looking into licenses by contacting the manus - however he should find pretty quickly when he contacts the companies it will be more expensive to be able to offer this sort of thing (legally anyway).

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

CHRIST GUYS! QUIT TURNING EVERY DAMN THREAD INTO A LEGAL DISCUSSION!!!!!!!!!!
We do not want this forum to resemble another forum that every thread turns in to legal issues.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I agree. I started my karaoke business with about $500 worth of equipment I used as a band PA, a $100.00 karaoke player I used at home, and a $300.00 loan from my mom to buy about 125 CDGs of suspect quality. My total investment to start was about $800.00. I was paid $250.00 a week for two gigs, and put about $75.00 a week into new CDGs and equipment until i "caught up" with the local standards.

8 years later, I have about 1100 CDGs and a 7-8K system, but my upgrades will NEVER be done!



It seems like most KJs on this board start out with about a 2-3K investment, then consistently upgrade from there.

10K will get you started with the type of system and discs it takes most KJs years to build.

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C Mc
KJ, FL