Karaoke Forums

Methinks he wouldn't.... I wouldn't sue the club because some pirate is using stolen software for my kisok - I have more integrity than that. I'd sue the pirate for sure but I'd also make sure that I had REAL EVIDENCE that it was in fact stolen. I wouldn't expect a club to verify a KJ's purchase with me - it's none of their business. If you run my kiosk software with no hardware dongle, I've got 'ya... The difference here of course is that you can't make a backup of the dongle and use a copy at a club... Not a single copy of my software has EVER been pirated by a KJ... (features and "feel" have certainly been copied by competitors though)

So your comparison above isn't valid at all Timberlea.... I'm surprised that you'd (with your law enforcement background) even suggest such an invalid comparison. Besides, you'll also find that I've never been sued for stealing and/or repackaging the source code (copyright and/or piracy) for my product while implying or stating to my customers it's "licensed." Can SC or CB claim that? I didn't think so.

What's next? Would you suggest I sue the singers in the club for using a stolen kiosk? After all, like the club, they are certainly benefiting from it's use aren't they?

Besides, you really don't NEED more than 1 kiosk in a club. Or you can keep printing books.

BTW: You do realize that my kiosk software even works for those that ARE disc-based like you right?... It will print your request slips for you on a Dymo printer... just like a "receipt printer."

And if you run a computer and STILL PRINT BOOKS, I have given away FREE software to help you prepare them and it's efficient, quick and did I mention free? Ask MtnKaraoke how it works....

Right on Timberlea... Chip won't see it that way.

I've said it before and I'll repeat myself for those that can't hear above the banging and clattering of those that are in the Anti-SC rut:

I believe there needs to be a requirement to possess original mfrs' product in compliance with the law. This means cooperating with other karaoke operators to force out those who do not play by the rules or meet the reasonable, minimum requirement of owning legal karaoke libraries. The requirement is imposed by your industry associates, your competition and your allies. NOT the mfrs. Now how do we verify and enforce the requirement OURSELVES? Trade organization, grassroots?

Chip's assumption that those who've been affected by piracy aren't making any money is unfounded. Let me state clearly, I've never been named in a lawsuit by a mfr. I voluntarily attended the meeting last November in Charlotte at Sound Choice Studios. I went because I was seeking and still am seeking answers directly from the source. I also viewed that trip as a diplomatic maneuver intended to preempt any legal action (or even investigative) against me or my business. I can state unequivocally that I have suffered no ill-effect on my business or my income and in fact I've been the recipient of some very advantageous purchase deals as well as several other considerations offered to me by these vendors as I've developed a business relationship with them.

I don't understand the concept that venues would just drop karaoke if they were told that they need to be certain that they are hiring karaoke services that are operating honestly. They wouldn't be doing any music at all if their attitude was that legality makes it scary. Venues were all worried about getting sued by ASCAP/BMI/H.FOX and rather than drop live music, they've complied in order to continue to offer entertainment that makes their business' money. I've had this conversation with my good friend and multi-establishment owner several times. In our initial contract (and every one since), it was spelled out that the venue was responsible for maintaining good legal standing within the existing legal requirements for them to provide entertainment and that I was responsible for maintaining my legal responsibilities regarding operating my service in his establishment(s).

I suppose I just can't see all the $$ being generated by adversarial effort. It adds to your profit margin?

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Never the same show twice!

How can their be a requirement of compliance within a law that doesn't exist?
How could their be any enforcement if there is no law?
...

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My statements, opinions and conclusions are based on my own personal experiences, observations, research and/or just my own $.02. I'm not a "cheerleader", but that doesn't make me a Pirate.

I had both my audits done (Chartbuster and Sound Choice) when I was disc based only back in November 2010. Part of the audit process it to eliminate operators that run on burns without owning the originals. I converted to computer in January of 2011, so it can be done if you are disc based just the same. So, yes the audit is for all karaoke host regardless of how they operate. I hope that clears your question up.

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No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

Smart phone are one of the primary reasons Trivia won't work any more. Just google the answers on your 3g or 4g phone and you can win all night long.

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No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

You don't or can't. And primarily because you won't be able to find enough KJ's that will invest the time or money it would take to do so. There's no investment in anything but hardware to get in this industry and therefore it attracts the cheapskates that don't like to spend or "invest" in anything that doesn't result in instant gratification. Cheap to enter this industry, cheap to stay here, no education, no nothing. It's a matter of pride how "cheaply" you can buy music, make books, or get cheaper hardware.... You even brag of your own "advantageous purchase deals" below and Athena has on numerous occasions honked her "look what I bought cheap" horn. Cheaper, cheaper, cheaper....



Where did you invent that "assumption?"



Why would there ever be any need to do so if you are legal to start with? Could it be that you were simply worried you were not "legal enough" to satisfy any manufacturers? Their only measure of course is to force you to submit to their unwarranted search. Or were you worried that even though you are legal, they'd sue you anyway like they did with McLeods?

You're simply out to protect your business - I get it. I just wouldn't find it necessary to cowtow to the whims of the manufacturers and consequently I've dropped brands... and with NO (repeat: NO) ill effects. You've made them your partner in your business.



Ahh.... rewards for purchasing/leasing new products? Not surprising.



ASCAP fees are a simple check paid once a year. No "inspections", no legal threats that a subcontractor (i.e. YOU) might be using something you have no interest in managing. It's an entirely different ballgame David and to compare the two as something valid is nothing short of misleading and you know that.



That is NOT what your buddies the manufacturers are saying. They are saying that it's the responsibility of your VENUE to monitor YOUR LEGAL RESPONSIBILITIES by conducting "audits" on their own behalf to avoid being sued by a secondary vendor. So now it's the venue's job to make sure that you are clean? What a crock. What's next David? Shall we contact the makers of snow brushes to make sure that the removal companies in Vail are using genuine replacement parts and not some Taiwanese knock-offs? If they don't do we sue the venues that have hired them for snow removal? And it goes on and on....



In more ways than you can know.

Chip, venues are responsible for what they purchase for their clubs, whether it be their food and liquour or the acts they hire. The excuse of "I didn't know" doesn't cut it. In most, if not all jurisdictions there are two violations that pretty well cover this, "Possession of Stolen Goods/Property" and "Accessory After the Fact". If a bar buys stolen beer or meat the venue can't use the excuse they didn't know it was stolen. A venue (and everyone else) has a responsibility to check those who they do business with. With a host it's the same thing. A venue has the right to ensure you and your music is legal and a check is completely legitimate and responsible. Now you have the right to refuse but don't expect to get hired.

Chip, you remind me of people who think they can outsmart and pull something over others. Many of them are in jails (I've put a few there myself). A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, using knowledge irresponsibly is even worse. Trying to twist things seems to be your MO.

Chip, your hatred of the manufacturers is well known to the point of ad nauseum. But that's your problem and I really don't care other than there may be some who come in here and buy your tripe.

I try to answer questions given to me and if I don't know the answer, I'll refer them to someone who does. I have been on this forum (and others) for a long time and for the most time I do not get into schoolyard fights and call people names.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

That's not a proper comparison.

They wouldn't be doing any live music if they were vulnerable to constant and perpetual lawsuits from Apple, Motown, Interscope, Atlantic, and the other thousand or so record labels in existence (the scary legality). ASCAP/BMI and such protect them from that (the reason they comply).

Aparently there is no such protection for the venues from every Karaoke label in existence and venues are finding themselves vulnerable to a multitude of individual nuisance suits as are perfectly legal KJs. I don't want that exposure, and I'll bet the venue owners don't either.

I shouldn't have to be made to feel I need to shell out to each individual karaoke label to protect myself from them since I already paid for the product. Any on going costs of owning and using a product should be spelled out prior to the purchase, not years after.

As it stands now, every karaoke label that feels like acusing you or your venue of "misusing" the product can harass you with their own individual protection scheme.

Sure, there's only a couple doing it now, but as this business model proves profitable, there will be a lot more taking that approach and KJs and venues will find themselves jumping through more hoops and shelling out more protection money until it's just not worth the trouble.

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KNOW THYSELF

I think that is the confusion, most think they cannot get their 'disc' collection certified if they aren't running a computer. Obviously they can as well.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

There are some, and that's a start. You have to start somewhere. Well, not you, but those of us who are attempting to move forward.



It is not bragging to say that cooperating with the mfr's has given me the opportunity to get a better deal. I also did not skimp on expense when it came to setting up my mobile sound system. There is a difference between being thrifty and shrewd with your money and being cheap. Don't paint me with that brush.





Answer: The following statement made by you...







Seeking knowledge. Meeting with others and attempting to gain perspective. The very same reasons I post on this forum.




I am not motivated by worry or fear or doubt. I have a singular drive to obtain the necessary information to consider and make the best decisions and/or take action. I knew it for a fact, that I owned a disc for every mfr's song that I've included in my library.



I was not forced. It is a fact that the mfr's (SC & CB) where unaware that I planned to attend that meeting. If I were using your kiosk software and I was using a rack mount PC, you would quite likely be unable to view the hardware dongle without looking inside my rack-case. Would it be un-warranted for you to request to view your dongle?



Again, I was not worried about being sued. I have no knowledge of the McLeods. These where not factors in my decision.




I know you get it. I appreciate the acknowledgement. I also don't find it necessary to cowtow. I've never found it necessary to drop brands.



Not at all. What business doesn't reward loyal customers with discounts and special offers? How is that wrong?



Not exactly misleading Chip... trying to make a relevant analogy. There are requirements including the tacit acknowledgement that a venue will be using licensed materials during its operation. ASCAP and others will "inspect" your venue to verify that you are using the licensed materials that would obligate you to pay them their fees.



I don't get that. I believe they are saying it is the responsibility of the venue to verify that they are engaging services that are verified to be based on discs whether they use discs (easiest to verify) or a computer (not the easiest to verify). They are also saying that they are willing to vouch for those services that they have verified. This is not a problem for me. Protect your business by trusting, but verifying.



It ALWAYS has been the venue's job to make sure that they do business "clean". To make sure that they do business with "clean" companies. You are aware that venues are held responsible for illegal activity that occurs on their premises. If a venue is aware of that activity, the repercussions are even more severe.




Not the slippery slope? If the makers of snow brushes had their industry gutted by knock-offs and they could identify an entity that was involved in supporting the "knock-offers", wouldn't they be just as entitled to go after the entity that bought into the illegal business/service? It doesn't go on and on, if a change is made. Somethings gotta give.

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Never the same show twice!

I still don't see how an individual, a group of KJ's or an association would be able "to force out those who do not play by the rules or meet reasonable, minimum requirements of owning legal karaoke libraries."

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My statements, opinions and conclusions are based on my own personal experiences, observations, research and/or just my own $.02. I'm not a "cheerleader", but that doesn't make me a Pirate.

Well, how did ASCAP, SOCAN, and the rest do it. As I said before AVLA has the model, it's just a matter of the manufacturers get on board so CD+Gs can be included.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

LOL well personally I wish we could use baseball bats but I think that is illegal....but the question bears pondering as to what could be done that is legal...here we are working with the liquor boards to inform venues that they rick having there liquor licence revolked for using pirate KJ'S same as for using liquor from unathorized distributors.

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

Sure something like those orgs would be great, but aren't there laws in place to base their enforcement on?

Here lately the rules seem to be changing as to what you can/can't do, and it's not consistent from one manu to another. I'm not saying an org. like that won't work for karaoke, but it's going to take more than KJ's, venues, and manus to make it happen.

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My statements, opinions and conclusions are based on my own personal experiences, observations, research and/or just my own $.02. I'm not a "cheerleader", but that doesn't make me a Pirate.

Absolutely there are laws in place that these organizations base their actions on, just as there are laws the manus are basing their actions on.

ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, SOCAN etc. are not lawenforcement or government agencies, they are just associations of artist and publishers, who use the laws that are in place to go after those that don't follow the laws and rules that "they" have put into place.

What happens here is that if someone violates the rules and laws these organizations file suit agasinsdt them in "civil court" and hope for the best.

The same thing can be done by a group of Karaoke Manus and KJs and it is being done.

As far as the rule changes go, there have been many rule changes over the years with all of these associations, rule changes are what got the karaoke manus sued retroactively for karaoke productions.

Congressionally passed laws, that every state in the union must abide by. Laws like, these agencies are allowed to send out their own Federally certified investigators for IP crime. It's the very awesome way of doing it.

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Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

LIKE

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

That's just it though athena...

As of now, there are no congressionally passed laws giving any "Karaoke Agency" any type of authority to do anything. How can we change that?

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Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me