Karaoke Forums

If these "special" people are hurting your business, particularly when it's a small business that you're trying to grow, it would seem you really have no choice but to ask them not to sing. It's not about discrimination or about being mean to mentally challenged people; rather, it's about protecting your financial interests. But at the same time you should be aware that these individuals might try to cause problems if you won't let them sing--which is why you need to be clear as far as why you don't want them to sing. Make sure they understand that you want everyone to have a good time but you must also be considerate of other customers, particularly when they are leaving or not coming back because they are turned off by terrible karaoke. It seems the bottom line is that these "special" people are only interested in having a good time with your karaoke. Regardless, you have to be more concerned about your interests, especially if they are causing you to lose customers. If so, then I would think your only choice is to not allow them to sing.

Why don't you get some of their favorite songs with the vocal versions and just mix them down into the song. Hell, they might think they are actually singing better and it will stop the ear bleeding.

Just remember if you're going to ban "Special needs" customers from singing because they are bad singers then you have to ban "Normal" customers from singing because they are bad singers.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

That's not a bad idea at all. The only problem is knowing what they'll want to sing, unless they only sing the same couple of songs every time.

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Birdofsong

I'm going to disagree to the extent that the issue here is that there are certain bad singers who are so bad they are causing customers to leave. It's not about bad singers per se, it's about the business of not losing customers.

If you only buy one drink, you only get to sing one song.

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KNOW THYSELF

At a former gig we had this problem - several people who were considered "f'ing retards" by the kool kids. It was a nasty situation - bartender would visibly roll his eyes and all the patrons sitting at the bar in front of him would react the same way. We were put between the rock and the hard place because his tips were affected by the presence of the singers in question. People would actually walk out if they came in and saw the group there.

In the end, we basically told the bartender that if he didn't want these people there singing, it was up to HIM to advise them that they had a limited number of songs...once he did that, they stopped coming...However, the down side of it was that there were people who were very sympathetic to those who had been forced out and THEY stopped coming too.

Sticky wicket...but in the end, it is the ringout at the end of the night for these places...and if we don't help with that, or actually stand in the way of it, of course there is someone who will come in and help with it.

If you are telling anyone they can't sing cause they are bad then you have no business being a host!! A good karaoke show consists of a safe place to sing no matter how you sound!! As long as you are spending money!! Or is your group is spending! More people in the long run will respect your compassion for those less fortunate!! The first person to critize any of my singers will get shown the door! No matter what they spend!!

Good idea.... Years ago when there were pop and water drinker problems, one of the tactics was that the servers would issue a colored ticket to each person that ordered a drink. That ticket was good for 1 song. So if you had a table of 4 water drinkers and 1 beer drinker, the table would receive 1 ticket. The tickets were transferable, so if the beer drinker wanted to give it away, they could.

But the idea was simply, "pay to play" and pop and water was not considered currency.

There were of course, those that cried "foul" by saying that the host was "promoting alcoholism" by making the drinking of alcohol a requirement and that there were those that for any number of reasons could not drink alcohol and would otherwise order food, etc. Fine. Order a meal, you would get a ticket too. But you wouldn't if you sat there munching on free (or practically free) popcorn or nursing a pop or water.

Situations differ and the boyfriend and I were just discussing this the other night because we do have a few special needs people who are regulars at our shows. We also have enough regulars who are just as challenged, singing-wise to be able to say that yes, we could have 5 bad singers in a row. But the difference is, if we were to deny one of the special needers their chance, the crowd would have our heads--these are community members who are loved and people cheer and support them rather than cringe. I remember when the sister of one was visiting one night and after her song thanked the crowd for "loving her sister." Now if that didn't make any doubters feel small.....

On the other hand, if we get good singers in, most tend to pass on through although we have at least one who is a professional but he doesn't put on airs as he just wants to relax among friends. Someone once remarked, "You guys have the reputation for letting everyone have their chance" and it wasn't meant in a good way......there is another show nearby thar loses the slips of bad singers, slow songs, non-friends. More excitement but the crowd can be sort of bitchy and cliquey.

The bottom line is, we realized that our friends show has been going on at that same place for almost 8 years and we are into year 3. So different strokes for different folks. It is all in the presentation--we had some people rolling their eyes about some singers but explain privately to a few that this person used to be a great singer who is now struggling to get their voice back after cancer surgery or that this person's range is limited because their ex tried to strangle them and they sing to get their confidence back and the rolling eyes turn to support. It won't work at a show that is geared to be entertainment but in a small communtiy bar, it IS all about the "therapy."

[quote="leopard lizard"] We also have enough regulars who are just as challenged,
I remember when the sister of one was visiting one night and after her song thanked the crowd for "loving her sister." Now if that didn't make any doubters feel small.....

we had some people rolling their eyes about some singers but explain privately to a few that this person used to be a great singer who is now struggling to get their voice back after cancer surgery or that this person's range is limited because their ex tried to strangle them and they sing to get their confidence back and the rolling eyes turn to support.

it IS all about the "therapy."[/quote]


I was so touched by this comment!! I agree!! The joy you get in making people happy that otherwise wouldn't be!!!

I had a singer that stuttered badly his whole life! The only time he didn't is when he sings!! He isn't great but he is so happy doing it!!! It is his therapy! He does a great "Baby Got Back!"

You have a show I would love to visit!
Please email me personally and let me know where I can be a part of this show!
karaokemarlon@aol.com

i don't know, i have a few singers that will take the pain off the walls and everyone else may go outside to smoke, but they come back. bad singers or not, if the people leave, there is more going on.
as for drinkers, i will not tell Scott "sorry you lost your legs to diabetes and have your daughters kidney, get some booze or get out"
"Hey C-Dub, forget your heart medications, get a beer or you cant sing."

my job is to get more people there, get them there earlier, stay later, come more often, and have a great time while they are there. drinking.....that is the bar and bartenders job to handle not mine. i specialize in getting more people, they specialize in selling more booze. if i have to sell the booze too i may as well just open my own damn bar.

if the "special" ones are causing that much of a problem that people are leaving, what else is going on? if they are not drinking enough for the bars tastes then the bartender either needs to get on the ball and do their job (selling more booze) or THEY can 86 them.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

This is really a touchy situation. I would never ask them to leave because they are special or the fact that they are horrid singers. However, these "special" people ARE making people leave. Of these 5 people in question, all 5 are NOT so handicapped as to be needing assistance from anyone. They all have drivers licenses and most of them hold down jobs. They just happen to be very "slow", not to mention they can make one cringe while they sing. 2 of the 5 are actually a very sweet older couple, that I actually quite enjoy having them there, simply because they have fun. One of the other 3 only comes in once in a while, and he is not liked at all. Not because he is handicapped, it's because he can be a pest sometimes. The other 2 are young fellows that are friends to each other. The first one invited the second one, and I seriously worried they will have more of their friends visit. Only one of the friends actually drinks alcolhol. The others only drink soda or non alcoholic drinks, but they do spend money.

Some of these singer WILL cause it so that others will not want to attend or frequent the bar. I would like them to just get bored and move onto another place, but I doubt that will happen. I am also not the type of person to treat them poorly (I actually treat everyone the same). I am just concerned that the show will die because of the others not wanting to listen to the painful sounds coming from these special people's mouths.

I have read some of the feedback so far, and find that nobody has a solution that is viable as of yet. Some people have felt it necessary to attach me and others (definitetly not cool). I do not know if anyone has ran into this type of problem before, but it seems to me that an answer to the problem is out there somewhere. I was asking for a solution, not any finger pointing that would only add to the problem.

I realize the owner/manager really hasn't been involved, but still think if he/she is the one to determine whether your show stays or goes it's worth mentioning your concerns with them, sooner than later.

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My statements, opinions and conclusions are based on my own personal experiences, observations, research and/or just my own $.02. I'm not a "cheerleader", but that doesn't make me a Pirate.

Actually, I was thinking along the same lines as to whether these so-called "special" people are handicapped to a point that they need assistance or if they are simply "slow". In my opinion, just because these individuals are "slow", doesn't mean they have carte blanche to do as they please, particularly if they are disrupting the business. I'm aware that these people may have nothing but innocent motivation in that they only seek to have a good time. However, "slow" or not, if they are able to determine right from wrong, they too have a reciprocal responsibility to be ethical, which means to not be disruptive or take advantage of the owner's/management’s good graces to a point that they are being disruptive. Although I believe that when it comes to karaoke, we all need to be patient; however, there is a threshold that can be crossed where a person’s lack of singing ability can become a disruption.

After reading the feedback, I would agree that it would not be wise to single these individuals out and essentially kick them out unless they become so disruptive that, for the sake of the business, there is really no choice but to advise them that they can no longer sing. Obviously, this would be a very awkward position to be in, especially when it may create a rift with other customers who may not understand the situation. In fact, I must admit that I don't fully understand because I have never owned a bar.

Nevertheless, I think one thing that can be done, which I think was previously suggested, is to reserve karaoke only for paying customers and erect signage stating that only those who spend a minimum of $5 (or some certain amount) will be allowed to sing karaoke. This policy will apply to everyone. I say this because, please correct me if I’m wrong, you mentioned that 3 of 5 will buy a Coke and a bag of popcorn and share it while the other two buy nothing, yet participate in karaoke—which I think is inappropriate. If you have a $5 minimum spending requirement it would mean that this group of 5 must spend at least $25 before they can participate in karaoke. Now, it may be that they have little finances available to all buy at least a Coke and a bag popcorn each—but, then again, whoever is unable to afford $5, as a businessman, I would not be inclined to ignore both the disruptive singing and lack of spending in my establishment. Spending a measly $5 is not over burdensome. Additionally, you are running a business and thus are there to cater to paying customers. Now I know that some may find my straight forward position intolerable since they will find it reprehensible to say anything to so-called “slow” people; however, again, “slow” does not mean these individuals are unable to understand right from wrong and cannot appreciate or understand that they are being disruptive. They too have ethical responsibilities to be considerate of others and to not take undue advantage of the owner's good graces. To me, it would be “undue” for persons to come into my establishment, not spend a dime and then use my karaoke equipment. I don’t care if you’re a professional singer or not.

it does seem that the brunt of the "disruptive" behavior is that they suck at singing. slow or not, a bad singer is a bad singer. take the slow part out of the equation to find the right thing to do. what would you do if it was the normal guy at the end of the bar? just do the same thing here unless......the patronsd are leaving because they don't want to deal with "retards" and it is not their singing. that is a whole different story if they are like that.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Not really advice but something I noticed, I have a customer who is vocally poor, he also air guitars, slides on his knees and wears loud t-shirts. At one venue, he was activelly embraced by the bar staff and management - as soon as he hit the stage they would be clambering on the tables to dance. At the same venue, a very softly spoken lad would occassionally talk through a song, usually something like Closer NIN substituting the swear words (our policy not the bars)... again the staff/management would start headbanging and clapping along. They embraced the weaker singers with open arms, and the nights their were busy and fun.

The new owner, at the bar visibly turned his nose up at the poorer singers and numbers quickly dropped off (even the "good" ones felt uncomfortable).

Most "non-karaoke" fans only stop and pay attention to the exceptional singers and sadly this includes a lot of the bar owners / staff and managers. . . the best venues are the ones where people leave their judgement at the door and find pleasure in watching other people enjoy themselves.

In ref: to the original post, would it be possible to encourage the poorer singers to do different songs, or a larger variety, or some group numbers. Johnny B Goode always tends to be popular even if the singer misses half the lines, and most public singers do like adoring fans, so if they come across well on stage it's fun for them and the listeners.

P.S. One of the poorer singers mentioned above, had taught himself to scream into the microphone to be heard (because other shows had turned his mic volume down, he'd sing louder, they'd turn him down again, he'd sing louder still and so on). When he said to me that he knew he wasn't the greatest singer but at least he performed, I told him half the problem was because he was shouting: I asked him to sing normally and re-assured him that I'd set the levels properly, in the following weeks he greatly improved.

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'A genius is one who can do anything except make a living'. Joey Adams.

Good post, Marble. We and the bar staff set the tone as far as acceptance, enthusiasm and karaoke etiquette. A bartender who rolls their eyes at karaoke singers or encourages some to ostracize others isn't the right match to be working during a karaoke show. People who show enthusiasm and support are gold.

As for the other issues, a pest is a pest and needs to modify or be removed.

Picking some more doable songs is a good suggestion. Autotune?

The BARTENDER needs to grow a pair (so to speak)and tell them they have to move along. No reason need be given. Bar retains the right to refuse services to anyone it chooses for any reason. It is a privately owned and operated establishment. Its not about them having this or that disabilly, its about them making other customers uncomfortable, the KJ uneasy about having to deal with the situation, their lack of purchases, one of them is cleary annoying and disruptive, and the negative impact on the bar's business, sales and revenue.

Tell them they need to move along and the entire situation will be quickly resolved and forgotten.

Again it is the Bartenders responsibilty to do this, not the KJ as the bartender is in charge of the business and the direct representative of owner. Not the KJ. The KJ is only the entertainment and has no direct authority in the operation of the bar.

Oh and as to our OUTRAGED FRIEND, before he wants to send a BIGOT blast my way....just let's be clear where I stand on the entire issue and my background. I grew up and lived with my Aunt for 15 years who has a profoundly mentally retarded daughter due to high temperature brain damage from meales/rubella. During that time(as a kid) I would help out at her school (New Horizons in Sepulveda, Ca) and later at the adult workshop she was at during the day. Presently, I am the Photographer for The Special Olympics Of Oregon (strictly volunteer)and have volunteered my time and professional photography services for thier events for the past 9 years. I provide photography for advertising, literature, website and thier new Facebook launch. In fact, just yesterday I was at the SOOR office sorting pics for them from last week's BITE OF OREGON STATE WINE and FOOD Festival benefiting SOOR. You can go to the Bite of Oregon website and see what I do for them as a volunteer. You can go read about this year's festival in the next upcoming issue of NW KARAOKE GUIDE MAGAZINE....as I am writing a magazine article covering the Bite of Oregon Fundraiser for the Special Olympics of Oregon. It will be published after 1st of September. You can look at it online also. I will be glad to publish the link when the story is posted.

So save me the BIGOT CRRAP and find out first who you are aiming at before you go and make a fool of yourself with random insulting and accusational blasts. And if you have any questions feel free to call me direct---503-757-5263!!

Keep us posted here on how the situation turns out.

YOU KNOW THAT I SING THE BLUES AND I DO NOT SUFFER FOOLS. WHEN I'M ON THAT SILVER MIC.....IT'S GONNA CUT YA.....JUST LIKE A KNIFE!!
------THE SWINGCAT!!------

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Just so everyone can all roll their eyes at one bar manager I had...

The manager tells me that two singers (boyfriend and girlfriend) are not allowed to sing past 10 'o' clock because they aren't any good. I tell the couple to talk to the manager when they arrived, They walk out (understandably), I have other customers complain and when it all calms down, the owner tells me...

"I didn't want that couple in here anyway, they were having sex in the disabled toilets last week".

He had a completely understandable reason to ask the couple to leave, and he chose to tell them that they can't sing.

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'A genius is one who can do anything except make a living'. Joey Adams.