Karaoke Forums

Okay, some back story - There is a new club in my town that is one of the largest in the area. They can fit 800 people. For reference, this was a bowling alley converted to a club. They have a national stage with a $100,000 sound system, etc and often book national acts. I wanted to book it from the start, but they had someone lined up (a friend) so I attended the show on a semi-regular basis to see how it went and sing at a great club.

Needless to say it was krappyoke. Most nights there would only be a dozen people in the bar, and maybe 4 - 6 singers. This is on a Wednesday. Even with that, I would only get to sing 2 or 3 songs a night, because he would play much more dance music than karaoke. After a while they simply "rented" his rig and ran it themselves. Same story on attendance.

So in I come to the rescue. I saw how bad they were doing and I know the potential at this place is huge, so I offered to do free shows until I could boost business. The owner is a pretty down to earth guy, and I like him. I really didn't mind, as I love what I do and if I could help them out fine. I even went to the sake of running advertising on facebook to help boost business. It worked.

Immediately in the first week I had 50 people in the bar, and for the next few weeks it was the same. Then we hit 60. Then we hit 70. Okay, time to pay. They come off with $40. Really? I told them do you know what the going rate is? They knew, but claim this is all they can afford as they are in the hole $1000 everyday for that place. The original guy they were paying $75. I say, if I am not here neither will the 60+ people and you are still $1000 in the hole.

First of all, they started running a $10 wristband for 10 beers or wells special. Great. Bring people in, no problem. Well, it is when they claim those drinks cost them $.68 each. (well drinks should be half that, so they must be referring to the beer). So, with 60+ people in the bar they are still in the hole. With their special they have been bringing in around $750. Not my problem really, I brought people in and you can't afford to not have me because then you will be back to a dozen people again.

I am trying to convince them to change the special to a $10 wristband gets you half off everything all night long. The wristband would make it not really half off, but most people wouldn't see it that way. And if they sell 50 wristbands, that's $500 revenue before they sell a drop of alcohol. There goes their cost excuse.

Not sure if they will go for this or not, but they really do seen to be bad at running a club (surprise, aren't most owners?) and always have their prices low trying to draw people. Granted we are in a small depressed town so I can understand to an extent. If the club was in a bigger city it would be another story.

For the moment we are agreed on half pay ($75) until they can figure out how to not be in the hole on the drinks they are selling. I hope they go for my idea, but we will see. I still want to see the numbers hit about 100 too, but this is a small town on a Wednesday. They have had numerous compliments on my show, and want to start karaoke on Tuesday also. I told them I will for the same arrangement, but you will have to pay me full price for Wednesday first.

In addition to all of this, he is in the talks for taking over a $2.5M club in a town 25 miles away and would like me to do karaoke there also if he gets it. So, yes, there was big risk on my part for how I handled the booking, but there is a lot of potential here if they can come to terms with paying me what I'm worth, as they see the value of the show I put on. What advice to you have on how to handle the situation or do you have better suggestions on the drink special, etc? He wants to draw more people in the bar with what he is running now, but there would need to be 200 bodies in there before it would be profitable and that will not happen in a small town in the middle of the week.

I think you just said it right there.

I don't know what the market is like in your area, but here in Kansas City if you were able to consistently pull 60 people into a bar, you'd be able to get paid $150 or more at several places in town. Is it really worth your while to play that particular bar?

They can't afford to pay you, but they can afford to take over a $2.5 million club? Their priorities sound messed up.

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I hate to sound critical right off the bat, but "free shows" is good way of saying "I'll work for tips" and $40 (or $10/hr) is pretty much what you are worth to them. Now it's a little more - still less than half the average rate of the country.

They'll simply wait until you demand more than they want to pay -like $100/night - and replace you with someone else who will "do free shows to build up the business"

There are a few places like that around here and the only KJ's they attract are the newbies that don't know better and need to get their foot any door they can. It's pretty much a "revolving door" of karaoke hosts/companies.

In your situation, it's their excuse that because THEY are offering this "special", they're losing money on it and have nothing left to pay you..... so stop the special and see if the patrons show up for the karaoke or if they were really there only for the discounted booze. If they stop the special and the patrons keep coming, then they can give YOU what they claim they were losing on the discount and still be exactly where they are today - except you make more money.

If the patrons stop coming because there is no discount, they weren't there for the karaoke anyway - they were there for the booze discount.

Either way you'll know what the real motivation for the patrons is and you can adjust your fee accordingly.

Our venue actually raises the price of drinks 50 cents when the music starts. If you had 70 people in there buying a drink an hour, that is $35/hour toward paying you. He will do specials to attract people but, at least at this place, people tend to stick to whatever it is they like to drink anyway. Young people are the exception and they will try anything.

The other side-effect of the price raise is you get people in early trying to get that first drink in before the price goes up so you don't have to wait for singers to arrive.

On the other hand, we had a show in a town and the local casino decided to take us out and started offering 4 free drinks plus raffle prizes to the singers. That worked so if you have competition that is trying to attract people via cheap drinks then raising the price obviously would backfire. And if your venue has been training the crowd to expect to be rewarded for coming to the show rather than expect to pay for the show, then it could be trouble to try and switch it back.

Ditto.
And ditto to what Chip said, too.
Can't be said any better.
I would never work for free, for the very reason you are posting about now.
You have valued yourself as cheap and now you want a raise. Good luck getting it, since the venue values you at exactly what you priced yourself at - bargain basement.
Think before you ever do this again. Is the fight really worth it?
When I started out, on my very first gig, my price was commensurate to what was out there at the time and I never dropped my price to get my "foot in the door". My services, even as a newbie were worth far more.
Now I command the highest prices in the area, more than any other company, but I also bring the venues what they want, and they know it. The reason for that is that I value myself and my services on a higher level than others, I am confident about what I can do for a venue, and I project that image to my clients. Currently, I won't open my front door for less than $250 for a four hour show.
Think about it this way:
You see 2 pairs of seemingly identical boots for sale. One is priced at $10 and the other at $100.
Right away, you ask yourself "What's wrong with the $10 pair?".
THAT is the image you project to others when you devalue yourself and your business. What is wrong with your business that you can't command at least commensurable pay?
If I had started out the way you are, I would either still be getting $40 a night or, more likely, I would be out of business.
The reason for that is that venue owners automatically think that if you are priced that low to begin with, then that must be all you are worth. Trying to change that concept in their minds is an impossible task and will only rarely happen.
I've also had bidding wars for my services on particular nights and I've been able to negotiate REAL raises that way, not after devaluing myself and then trying to get a "raise" to what I should have been getting to start with. The venues know that if they don't pay me what I'm asking, someone else will, and in a heartbeat. So now, I not only value myself highly, but others do too, and they can clearly see it.
You are treated by others exactly the way you allow yourself to be treated. (This concept applies to all areas of your life, too!)
Remember, it's always easier to start high and drop prices later, if need be, but it's almost impossible to start low and then try and go up.
Get yourself out of the bargain basement and put yourself on the top shelf where you belong.
This venue clearly doesn't value your services, and it speaks volumes that they are investing an another bar but they say they are losing money in the current one and can't afford to pay you.
Bar owners ALWAYS cry poverty.
Think about it. If you own a bar that loses money hand over fist like they claim to be doing, would you spend millions to buy another one?
Of course not, and neither would they.

Are you coming in with your own setup, or are you just using their House System (which you said they are renting)? If you are just using their system (even if you are bringing in your own library of discs to use), then $60 - $75 is all you should be getting. If you're doing the whole nine yards (bringing in your own equipment and setting up and breaking down later), then you should be getting AT LEAST $150 for a 4 hour show.

As for the Free Show offer, unless it's for Charity, NEVER offer to do free shows (and that shouldn't be an offer that extends several weeks (as you described)) unless you have a signed contract that guarantees they will keep you on for xxx more shows at $xxx.

I guess I'll add my 2 cents....

I have already learned your lesson. But, I'm sure you know that....

Tim & Tom's - didn't want to pay me my rate for Saturdays. After a lot of debates over price & hard feelings, I brought my karaoke show across the street. They thought they could continue without me - well, they shut down Saturday karaoke a few months ago. And now, they're closed and in the process of selling it. And my Alibi show is thriving on both Fri & Sat.

Jimmy's - takes advantage of introductory pricing. He now has a history of stiffing his karaoke hosts out of the agreed upon rate and going with someone else that will give him a deal to get their foot in the door. Argued over money often with him - told him I am not working for $50-$75/night while he runs a "Bucket Night" promotion - $4 for a pitcher of your favorite well drink. He left me the same message as he did Joey K - "Hey, karaoke isn't working out, so we are going to stop it" - right before he posts on his FB about his new karaoke hosts. I knew we had our work cut out for us going up against the Chamber, but he would not change nights.

My advice - stick to your guns in regards to price. That is one thing you and I can agree on. Let them get someone else in there. I can tell you it won't be me. And there aren't many other good options. I think that if they want to try someone else, they'll eventually call you back.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

This is right on the money.
I had one venue that canceled karaoke and decided to try an open mic night, hoping to save money. (The person they hired to host it worked for no pay and a couple of beer.)
I got called 3 months later and went back with a raise.
Then they decided that they were paying me too much and figured that they could do without me over the winter season. They thought that the crowds would fill the place even when I wasn't there. After hearing crickets for another couple of months, they called me back again, for another, more substantial raise this time.
Had to make the money back I missed over the winter somehow!
They finally quit messing around when I asked for a small raise, and they refused it. I let them know I was approached by another venue, but they didn't seem to care or thought I was bluffing.
I walked right over to the other venue for more than I was asking of the first venue.
The first venue hired me back within a couple weeks, but they had to accept a different night and a MUCH higher raise this time.

cueball said that if you use the house system then you should do it for around $60 - $70. Wrong, Wrong Wrong! They are hiring YOU to get people in there and keep them coming back. It's about your personality, showmanship, proffessionalism and hosting ability that is going to draw a crowd. It doesn't matter who's system you use. Sorry cue, but that is ridiculous advice.

I agree 150% with everything diafel has said.

If they do not pay you what you are worth (working for free = nothing, unless you feel you're worth nothing), I would walk.

Again, diafel is right on the money.

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Nah a host using a house system should not make as much as a host providing all the equipment & music as well as hosting. I disagree with them getting the same amount.

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An here, I agree. If I supply my system and music, I certainly should get paid more than someone who owns and supplies nothing. Part of my fee is my system "rental", if you will. Having said that, I also won't use someone else's system unless it's far better than mine, and I will never use someone else's music, ever. It's my music or I don't play. I actually took over a gig that had their own system and music. They were more than happy to let theirs gather dust and allow me to use mine.

Unless you really enjoy doing it at that location, just walk away. I think that few places can work with $1000 a day overhead and also run karaoke at a profit. The rare exceptions would have more expensive drinks and that appears to not be the case here. If you are a very good KJ with a great setup, you can eventually pull that much traffic to a venue, but to do that probably will take a year or two of building reputation and a high local demand for good karaoke with little good karaoke competition.

Troy, if you haven't guessed it, it is Club Envy. As far as Jimmy's Pub goes, they were running karaoke BEFORE Chamber for at least a year. Then I booked Chamber and they have been cycling hosts ever since. Their original host was one of the best I've seen, and I've heard good things about your show but haven't been to one yet. Nice of them to let you go right after the contest.

So yes, I know I am worth the going rate. I wanted to run this business at a value by being better than other shows but charge the same. That is what it takes to book in my area. Most times, they will only do it for a discount. I really think I may need to move, .

Like I said, I like the club, and the owner, and my Wednesday was open so I had no problem in offering to help bring in business. I may walk still if they continue to whine about paying me, and I bet they call me back after a couple weeks. I know there are a couple discount KJs in town that will work for as little as $40, but you get what you pay for. That's why I balked at what they were telling me I was worth when they wanted to "start paying" me. I explained I have over $15,000 invested into this so far, most of it in music, and it has to pay for itself eventually. So no, $8-$10 is not sufficient pay. (can't forget set-up and tear down, even with the house system it still takes 30 minutes each).

Yes, I am on the house system and they are even having the house sound guy still for $60 a night, even though he basically only sets my starting volume and chills the rest of the night. So, all things considered I probably could ask less than the $150, but I doubt I would accept any less than $100. I was originally bringing in my system to Chamber Bar, and they eventually got a house system but I still get paid the same amount, so I'm still not convinced I should take a pay cut on the going rate, especially considering how much business I have brought in.

It is just discouraging to see a bar with so many people, and cry we are losing money. I just booked a bar in Grand Haven, a little tourist town to the South, and they are only getting ten people but still fork out pay for the KJ.

One of the biggest problems in our area is such a huge amount of BAD karaoke companies giving it a bad name, and so many bars struggling to even stay open in our bad economy. There is at least one karaoke company for every bar in our area right now. Booking is like pulling teeth most times. I may have to go all the way to Grand Rapids (45 minutes away) to book bars for the nights I still have open. More bars, but still more karaoke companies.

The only host in my area that could ever pull $250 for a show is Aarmon, and that is only because he has been doing it for 15 years, not that he is that great. He works for another company, (huge actually, with a dozen rigs) and they have a good music selection. His shows typically only go 3.5 hours, yet he pulls a premium. Crazy.

He doesn't work for them anymore, he "bought them out". His shows aren't what they used to be. One reason: his newest song is from 2006.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

A venue with $1000 a day operating expenses would have to have planned for something to generate enough revenue to cover days that didn't generate it. Would have to have been allowed for in the business plan if money was borrowed to finance the joint. (Assuming here that they planned on their concerts to do this.)

If they are not covering expenses with their concerts etc. you won't have to worry about walking. They will soon bleed to death anyway.

This probably has nothing to do with karaoke. With a lot to space comes a lot of overhead, heat, lights. taxes etc. This ten drinks for ten bucks promotion sounds self-defeating to me. Even an old drunk like me is going to be hammered on 10 drinks so that's all I'm going to spend (plus tips.) The bar makes $3.20 per patron before expenses, how does that make them any money?

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Okay, who took my pants?

^^^ Exactly. Why would you limit yourself to $4 per customer? Right now, the bartender is making the most money out of anyone.

Troy, I was referring to J Rose Entertainment, formerly Blue Rose Entertainment. He currently plays at Val Du Lakes Resort.

So last night was their biggest Wednesday since they have been open, with 80 - 90 people at the bar. We are starting karaoke on Tuesday also, with a contest, as we are sing 25-30 singers on Wednesday. Sign-ups started last night an there are already almost 50 people signed up. So, with any luck their Tuesday will be big too. Before there was literally only a couple people that would go to the bar on Tuesday.

After the contest, we will be running theme night karaoke with a drawing for $25 every week for every song sang in the theme. I will be going to full price for them on Wednesday as of November, and for Tuesday will take a $25 pay cut to cover the drawings. In the end, it may have been worth it! Now to book Friday or Saturday somewhere...most bars around here seem to have the impression you can only do bands on weekends, even if they only book infrequently.