Karaoke Forums

I have heard people blame the declining value of karaoke shows on many things; primary among them are the economy and piracy. It is my belief that if there is any single factor driving down the price of a karaoke show it is new technology. As improvements in technology are gained they tend to replace human skills wherever that technology can be applied. The karaoke industry is not immune to this effect.

Many well paying occupations have fallen due to the rise and application of technology. I once earned an excellent income as a television repairman in the late 1970s and throughout the 1980s. In the years after that I watched my income from tv repair decline as sets became cheaper to buy than to repair because of advances in technology that made the manufacture of tvs much cheaper.

There are countless examples of occupations that have suffered due to better technology:
Travel Agents
Telephone Operators
Photo Lab Technicians
Elevator Operators
Gas Pump Operators
Bank Tellers
Horses
Librarians
Lectors (early form of karaoke)

Even Bar Bands have suffered with the introduction of karaoke technology and the rise of Karaoke shows.

How is technology affecting the karaoke industry?
Computers, Internet, and cheaper electronics.

Karaoke hosting programs have eliminated the need for skillful organizing and handling of discs and rotation management for many hosts.
Internet purchasing has improved the availability and speed to which one can acquire and increase a library.
Computers have also made production and marketing of songs easier and cheaper.
The per-song cost (I mean the cost to acquire a desired song – not counting the fillers) was once as much as $15 (that’s if there were two desired songs on the disc). Today that song and almost any other song can be had for less than $3. The total library of available songs is much greater as well.

Technology has made it cheaper and easier to get into the karaoke business legitimately. That being the case, more people will continue to enter the business and the value of a basic karaoke show will continue to decline.

This is not a hopeless situation however.
The value of a show can be maintained and even increased by putting on more than just a basic show. This can be done with a combination of the human skills technology has not yet been able to replace (thinking, rapport, empathy, reasoning, learning, self-awareness). The trick is in not putting on a basic “next up” karaoke show – computers still don’t know how to have fun and make fun.

This is not a rant against technology; it’s an acceptance of it. The technology is a tool, and when wielded skillfully, desired results can be achieved.

The manifestation of economic woes, cheaters, and under cutters is inevitable in any business. Preparedness to compete is the key to survival.

_________________
KNOW THYSELF

Absolutely!



Ditto absolutely!

Earthling, I would have to amend your statement. While certain jobs and skills have actually been replaced by new technology- such as a travel agent- I would not agree that this applies to Karaoke Hosting. New technology may have made music acquisition, storage and retrieval ( legal or otherwise) easier, ( and will handle rotation, I guess, if the software's version is what seems fair to your patrons) it really hasn't intruded on the skills of a true Karaoke Host.

While anyone may now use software and their home PC ( and this has been publicized by none other than foot-shooting KJs) to run a show, technology has not replaced the skills required. Sound mixing on the fly, problem solving, and most importantly, hosting skills.

There have been "Karaoke Jukeboxes" tried in many venues. They have all the technology and the library needed. One can key change, set bass, treble, reverb, and other stuff.

Yet they start gathering dust after a very short time. Either no one uses them, or- with no rotational supervision- they either start fights or leave the venue with a mic hog singer hanging on it all night- prompting the venue to kill it.

Technology has not replaced the person who can make the shy comfortable enough to sing, the outgoing really shine, and have them love it. Technology hasn't replaced the ability to make sure that non-singers have as great a time as singers. Technology hasn't replaced the ability to make all feel special. and part of a "karaoke family".

In other words, technology has caused those who DEPEND ON IT to lose shows, due to lack of hosting SKILLS.

Hosts that bring in a large income to venues through their personal skills lose shows to no one- whether cheaper or whether with larger libraries.

Hosts that are library dependent and technology dependent can be replaced by any other host who has paid for ( or acquired another way) the same equipment, software, and music.

Hosts that worry more about keeping their patrons happy, and less about how they can make their own lives easier remain successful- period.

Dead giveaways posted even here on the forum:

1) " I don't like those types ( whatever "those types" are) of people, and don't care if they come to my show or not"

Your job is to bring in money to the venue. Who you like and don't like has less than zero relevance.

2) " I choose the best versions, and those are the ONLY ones in my book. with all my songs, they should be able to find something to sing..."

YOU choose the "best versions"? Who died and left you the karaoke judge?! There IS no BEST version, only either the most popular amongst the most patrons, or the version that this particular customer practiced with, and therefore is happiest to sing- period. It doesn't matter if it's DK, SC, Zoom, Party Tyme, Singing Machine, Music Maestro, CB, or Backstage, it only matters that the patron is happy.

3) I don't do that ( whatever "that" is) because it's too much of a PITA.

Tough. You are paid to WORK, not eat bon-bons and do what you feel like. Do the work and keep the job.


4) " I have a lot of good singers, and don't need the bad or less talented ones".

Yeah, you do. Not only do less talented singers usually bring in more money to a venue ( your job) than soda/water drinking divas worried about sounding like stars, but having a few helps possible new singers feel less intimidated and willing to try.

5) Any show that is down because of technical difficulties for more than ten minutes is run by a KJ who didn't take the time to learn ALL the parts of his/her business.

And many, many more.....

Every time I start a thread about karaoke SKILLS, I get get around ten real replies out of like a thousand members on whatever forum that it's on. What does that tell you....?

One can worry about technology, competition, bad weather, or an ugly face, but the bottom line is if one gets off one's lazy a$$, LEARNS all that is part of the business, and- take a xanax here- WORKS HARDER, one will be successful- in ANY business- STILL.

My Advice: Stop worrying and whining about what others are doing, and do your freakin' job- you know, the one you get PAID to do? Apologies if that seems harsh, but it WILL solve your problems.

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

the problems is not technology.

it's the fact that the bar owners think they can dictate what they should pay us!
why should the bar tell us what we are worth - they are in it for the profit.

shouldn't we think the same way as the bar owner? aren't we in it for the profit.

and it's fact that the karaoke hosts have allowed this to happen.
YES THE HOSTS LET THIS HAPPEN - PIRACY & LOWBALLING IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!

we need to band together and take control back from the bar owners and let them know it's our show and our equipment that brings in the singing/drinking customers.

we need to establish prices that everyone would abide to so we don't undercut each other.

but who am i kidding, "work together & not undercut each other" it will never happen with all the piracy and the small investment they put in to get started.

_________________
It's all good!

Because they have been trained by KJ's that accept what they are willing to pay...

The worst is the KJ that has the "8 week introductory price" that ends up as the "forever price." Or the KJ that agrees to a "percentage" of the receipts after a baseline number they can never reach (i.e. $75 flat and then 5% of receipts above $1,500) which is a sucker bet that sounds good on the surface, but impossible to reach.

Lowballing like this has been going on from the start...

I kind of keyed on this in another thread. Other novelties need to coincide with the karaoke ie; drink specials, raffles etc...

Karaoke in of itself is not much of a draw nowadays for those with expendable income since money is tight.

Ladies night has most of the karaoke hot spots thriving due to obviously having girls in the place.

It's a shame that Karaoke has decline in value, but it's no different than many other things that have done the same. Everything is hyper competitive and it seems that it gets harder and harder to make a living in every field. There are lots of talented people out there struggling to make it. What a shame.

In my area talented musicians top out at around $150 a night and people in a band might make only $75 a night. There are a very few Karaoke hosts and performers making $175-$200 a night, but they are few and far between.

Believe it or not, mobile home parks pay better than any bar, restaurant, hotel or just about any venue. If you get in the circuit and make a name for yourself you can make $250-$300 a night as a solo performer in the mobile home parks. This is a retirement area so there are lots of mobile home parks geared specifically to seniors. I know this because I've made $250 for a singe performance and I was giving them a discount from the usual $300 that they normally pay.

Bars and restaurants are really struggling and will book Karaoke or a solo musician for $75-$100 a night even if they stink over someone who is good who is asking $150 for 4 hours. I know because it's happened to me.

I would concur that the better money is away from the bars. I was making more than double for private parties this year and more than half my shows were private shows. I turned down a $200 bar gig for last night. I told her it was a holiday for djs and karaoke hosts since Halloween is one of the busiest bar nights of the year and she wouldn't come up to my bottom offer of $225 so I passed. Unbelievable but I received a call at 8:57 last night to do an out of town bar gig because their dj didn't show up. Little late for that but anyway I've gotten tough with bars on my price this year, I won't do it for peanuts anymore. I've got most the new technology that's out there, I have a pretty good system and I think my hosting skills are better than most and I always get positive feedback during my shows and/or at the end.

We all will have to adjust, in 10 years the post office won't be won't be what it is today, things change, businesses have to adjust. But I do agree, the biggest thing to keep getting the best possible price is hosting skills.

_________________
KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

In my area I see very little in the way of real showmanship at a karaoke show. The better shows I've been to have people who

1) keep the music volume at a reasonable level -- you would be amazed how many want to blare the sound so loud you can't talk to a waiter or waitress to order a drink. Now does anyone else see something wrong with that picture or is "concert sound" more important than the venue selling drinks?

2) At least attempt to balance the volume of the singer to the song. Again you would be amazed how many hosts will not even attempt to give a singer with a weaker voice more volume or who will permit ear splitting screamers to drive people out of the bar.

3) Maintain a fair rotation -- this aspect is generally pretty good

4) Have an excellent selection -- this part is seldom an issue -legality of some multi-riggers in the area would be interesting to find out more about though. The biggest show in town runs multiple rigs where for some strange reason "Betty Davis Eyes" always comes up with the same unreadable lyrics at the same part of the song. Surely if there is more than one decent disc copy of the song among the several rigs this could be addressed, but never is. I guess they could have just copied the same laptop instead of ripping the other discs and that would be legal, but you'd think they would address that song -- it's been like that for over a year and nobody seems to notice...

5) Have a fairly up to date book - virtually unheard of - "just ask me and I'll tell you if it's in the computer"

6) Use a stage monitor? Unheard of in this town. The singer has to contort themselves around to try to hear what's coming out. Otherwise equipment tends to be top drawer and many hosts do a decent to excellent job mixing the sound if the singers voice falls into a certain average volume range.

7) Say "nice job ____" and ask for applause. Generally gets done fairly consistently at most shows, but not much variation on those lines.

Now where does some real showmanship come in beyond that? Most local hosts are excellent singers I have to say, but often their selections run towards slow ballads or forgetablle material instead of real crowd pleasers. I'd love to see something more in the way of real showmanship in action and not just for that 20 minutes or so of a 4 hour night when the host is singing.

I used to crack a joke once in awhile when I was actively hosting or throw out a piece of trivia on a song, but those days are long gone with my day job schedule and so I content myself with trying to get a handle on the new technology while doing a few private parties here and there.

When I go out as a customer to someone else's shows I seldom hear a joke or any repartee with the customers - just a lot of filler music, slide shows, music videos at best. If you are a regular it's not too long before you've seen the collection and aren't so amused anymore.

Worse yet, who wants to go out to a virtually empty bar and still have to wait at least 4 hours to get in 3-4 songs because the host is playing multiple dance songs and nobody is dancing? I can have more fun and sing a lot cheaper at home if there's no crowd and no more chance to sing than that.

I just don't see anyone putting on what I'd call a real show anymore, but I would LOVE to see what you guys who are doing more are up to. I still have LOTS to learn about this business and I'd love to give it another shot someday.

I'm going to add a little more on to this longwinded epistle while I'm at it...

I read a book a few years back from a guy and frankly some of what he did I hated and some I loved, but here are a couple of things he did I've never seen done and I found these ideas interesting...

A) He had a very elaborate lighting system -- and actually chose lighting to fit the mood of the song using a controller to change colors on a spotlight which pointed at a genuine stage area -- where the singers might be flooded with say blue light for a cool blues song, or a red color for a passionate sexual song or a bright yellow for something sunny and happy sounding.

B)This guy actually TALKED to his singers before they started their song and sort of interviewed them about what they were going to sing, where they were from, why they were going to sing the song, etc. sometimes eliciting some rather humorous remarks from the singers -- the guy who was singing for a girl who thought singing was sexy and hoping to get lucky or whatever...

Now how would singers react to this in your area? I'm sure some would be embarrassed, but I would think others are hams enough to absolutely love the extra attention and time in the literal spotlight.

Karaoke just isn't as big as it was 10 years ago.

There will always be lowballers, and usually the lowballers are the poor hosts.

People who want to blame technology and pirates for their inability to get work are likely the aforementioned sub par hosts.

If a customer is looking for a BMW, he's not likely going to call Bills Bargain Auto Corral.. likewise, a bar owner looking for a top notch host isn't going to book a kid with a net book and a Fender Passport PA for $50 a night.

In the end, your job as a karaoke host is to put asses in the seats and sell booze. If you can consistently deliver, you will be paid well for it.

If you can't, then you end up on internet message boards crying about it, and blaming everything but yourself.

You think the economy is in the can? Go look at the drive thru window at McDonalds at lunchtime 7 days a week.

People have expendable income, they're just spending it more wisely. If you expect people to come to a bar and listen to your "show" you need to give them a better reason to spend $3+ a beer than just karaoke.

Be a host. Be engaging. Be fun. Keep the momentum going. Constantly say the name of the bar and your company name. Build a brand.

I agree some what.

I moved away from where I am now for about 3yrs, when i came back the area is overrun by pirated karaoke!

and finding a new job in this area really sucks. it's a border town, washington side went no smoking and alot of the bars closed as everyone moved over to idaho state to get drunk.

my best is one of the local animal lodge's where I get $150 a night but only 2 nights a month. and i refuse to work for nothing so i don't even mess with the local dive bars. i like to stay with the clubs and casino's. and i'm disabled so i don't care to really work 4-5 nights a week. so i take what i can get at a fair rate. and i have a great show.

my show isn't a disappointment either. with over 2500 disc's i have a lot to offer. i have disc's split up so i can cover 2 shows, one set for country and the other set more towards the younger pop & country crowd. when only running one show i combine all disc's and have one hell of a show. component rack mounted system with enough power to play any size venue. lighting available if need or wanted.

one of my friends that hosts at a little dive bar in the north end of town only get $40 a night and free beer.. @ 4 nights a week. he fills the bar everyweekend and is just loyal to the owners for some dumb reason. (let's see - native american & free beer?) he uses all his cash to by new music to keep his customers happy. he doesn't have to teardown or setup just bring his disc's in for the show, which is nice but still now worth it in my opinion.

he knows if he quits or asks for more money that he won't be able to work any else as with all the pirates already working. he likes the dive bars as he know everyone in town. and is liked by everyone.

having good equipment, lots of music and being people person isn't doing it for him.

as for me there are not enough places in town that pay the high dollars, and the ones that do pay good have pirated systems running.

the red lion (lewiston idaho) has a pirated show. the host their is selling systems to local bars with pirated music on them. and he runs a couple show in town. he started doing it because he couldn't make it as a musician alone he plays in a local band called (coltrain) not coaltrain or kohltrain.

sorry about going on and on but piracy and technology is a big part in my area why legit hosts are not working........

_________________
It's all good!

it is not just the piracy in and of itself as i see it.
the undercutting that has been going on for a long time from pirate and legit equally started it. competition is one thing, but to actively go to a show and say "i will do it for $xx.xx" was the beginning.
pirates who don't give a $h!t and hit the smaller bars that did not, nor could not support karaoke was the next step. when my show is at 38 singers like wednesday was, people start leaving to go to she dive down the road just to get to sing. in general, that lends itself to reducing show attendance. if they can sing once with me in my 2.5 hour rotation, they can sing 6 times down the road. not as good by any means, but at least they can sing.
then came the pirates who do a truly great show, just steal all the music, these are the really dangerous ones. no overhead, but great show and cheap rates (from no overhead) and how do you compete with that?

_________________
Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

I do agree with a lot of your statements, but the above quoted part I disagree with comparing it to karaoke pirates.

In the 80's, when you were making good money repairing TVs, a guy opens up a business repairing TVs down the street, and does it at 1/4 the price as you do. That would KILL your TV repair business (assuming quality and parts are the same).

But what you didn't know is that the guy down the street, is using parts he stole from a semi load of parts going to a warehouse.

Gotta compare Apples to Apples.

No, I reject the arguement in many respects. Technology has made the host's job easier, and certainly easier to get into the business... but to STAY in the business still requires SKILL.

Simple observation. I've been in the business for five years now. Karaoke and DJ is my business, I don't have a second job. I've seen hosts come and go. Why? Because they suck as hosts. They don't know how to mix a singer, what equipment to buy and more importantly have poor people handling skills.

Come on guys, we all know how obnoxious a drunk can be, and that cute blonde chick who insists on horning in on everyone's song beacuse she thinks she can get away with it because she's cute.

How do you as a host handle these situations?

Piracy is part of it because it allows easy entry into the buisness, but it is not the whole problem. These lousy hosts give karaoke a bad name.

Time and time again, I hear the same thing from the NON singers at my shows. "I hate karaoke, but i like your 'show'."

There it is folks. Period, the end. There is a balance returning as the chattle gets whittled away, and those with skill will remain... and get top dollar for doing what we do.

_________________
Good music, good friends, howling good times!

The economics of karaoke are simple supply and demand. The points about technology are one piece of the overall pie that lead to a sort of karaoke "bubble" right around 2007-2008 where the market for $175-200+ hosts was at its peak, and the market could support all of those hosts quite happily. However, as in any economic system, there is a point where oversaturation makes it so the market can no longer support the wages/prices, and there is a bubble.

We are currently in the bubble, where, just like housing and many many other sectors of the economy, everyone THINKS their services are worth $XYZ, where in reality, the current market is bearing $ABC. The 2008 national average for karaoke hosts of $125-150 probably isn't supported in the current economy, and the $100-125 KJ is likely closer to the new market rate. You either conform, or you will be weeded out by the economy. This is AVERAGES people, so no "I makes $blah,blah for my bar and deserve...." crap.

Hence, the $75 black market KJs will continue to get business while the market corrects itself. KJs charging $175-200+ that are not making money for their bars will be forced to either correct to the market or get fired. This will happen (and has been happening for 2-3 years) all over the country in slow increments until the entire country settles on a new market rate for KJs based on the then current economy, then the demand will slowing start to rise again, along with wages.

Simple economics, and the same thing is happening in thousands of industries right now. One day, it will settle down and reset, but it is going to take a while!

As soon as you start hearing that Florida and Michigan real estate are ont he rise, you'll start getting calls from bars looking for new KJs. It goes hand in hand!

_________________
C Mc
KJ, FL

Well I can't speak for Florida, but I can tell you in Michigan that is going to take a long time. Recently, a $300,000 home with $50,000 worth of improvements recently sold for $149,000.

A late-model Lincoln Continental was for sale at a garage sale for $3500. It looked like it came straight out of the show room and had about 80,000 miles on it. granted, it's not the lowest mileage on the planet and even if the engine were to blow up, it would still be cheaper to replace the engine than purchase a new car.

If you are looking for a used car, this is a state to find one.

However in the bar market, karaoke companies have been paid usually no more than $150 for years. There is plenty of competition, and the bar owners are looking specifically for karaoke companies that will provide their services for $100 or less.

My point was that the "Economy" as a whole probably hasn't turned around until you see the hardest hit areas turn around. A "turn around" is not getting your $300K values back, it would be starting to see a normalized foreclosure market and consitent annual inflation of home values.

Here in the Tampa Bay area, I bought a house for $209,000 in 2005 that I paid down all the way to $90,000. I tried to have it refinanced the other day, and the appraisal came in at $98,000, and I can not refinance it through standard financing because it is a rental and I do not have 20% equity. I've given them over $100,000.00 cash and don't have enough equity to refinance....that just floors me.

This is for a very nice 3/2, 1400 SF, one car garage, everything updated, new roof, new driveway, huge yard, nice neighborhood. A solid newer middle class family home.

So I have put 100K plus about 20K in improvements into it, and right now if I sold it would probably owe after real estate commission. Luckily, I at least have it paid down enough and it generates enough rentail income to keep feeding it for the forseeable future.

I shoulda stayed a renter!!

Good luck Michigan!

_________________
C Mc
KJ, FL

While I agree with Earthling and Second City Song that add-ons CAN add some zip to the show where required, I would add that even this should be done in moderation, because it can also be a show killer.

I know a host that throws in trivia, 20 minute music sets, and an alleged comedy spiel- and he'll do this stuff in mid-rotation. The result is a bunch of POed singers that aren't getting their air time. He literally wipes out 1 to 1 1/2 rotations like this.

Also, doing the same predictable bit with props like the huge bra, humping monkey, toilet flush sound effects, puppet, etc... every single week really starts to grate.

Bye Bye show.

Everything in moderation.

As for me: In the beginning I used props, put up corkboard "Halls of Fame" ( Took pics of singers in their glory and posted them on the board in the venue, and left them there on display. After awhile, as the board filled, I gave the pics to the singers), sound effects, DJed, etc...

Now I'm pretty much a karaoke purist in club venues. Karaoke, a couple of filler songs between rounds so the smokers can step outside, and may be the occasional sound effect depending on the crowd. That's it. So far so good.

I also agree with Second City Song that Ladies' Nights rock.

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

This is actually a mainstay for me. The difference is that I take time to talk to all and get them comfortable with me BEFORE we talk on mic, so they are relaxed, making for better mic time. I believe it helps create the "Karaoke Family"
feeling that I try to build.

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

You guys...
This topic...

Never have I so wanted to puke.
You guys are seriously sick.

Do you not get the economy is sh1te.
You so frustrate me I have to stop.

I can restart now.
Compose.
Go!
It's time to play the music
It's time to light the lights
t's time to meet the Muppets on the Muppet Show tonight.

It's time to put on makeup
It's time to dress up right
It's time to raise the curtain on the Muppet Show tonight.

Why do we always come here
I guess we'll never know
It's like a kind of torture
To have to watch the show

And now let's get things started
Why don't you get things started
It's time to get things started
On the most sensational inspirational celebrational Muppetational
This is what we call the Muppet Show!