Karaoke Forums

I repeat - OEM’s make this decision. Not Microsoft. OEM’s customize the operating system and add their crapware to the system as a means of enticing people to purchase additional software or services from the OEM. If the OEM’s provide a base O/S without the crapware then many people would simply blow away the system and load the base O/S thus preventing the OEM from being able to sell the additional services. They simply aren’t going to do that.

I will repeat again – It is an OEM decision. Not a Microsoft decision.



You did not buy the software. You licensed it. The license states what the terms are. The most common terms are that the installed copy of Windows is for use on that machine only and is not transferable in most cases. It is not a retail license which costs more and does allow for transfer under certain conditions. In the case of an OEM pre-install, you get a discount on the license and accept certain restrictions as a result.

Example - You want to buy Sound Choice discs. Go ahead. You want to media shift them, you pay more. Same concept.



I am not whining about piracy. I only brought up piracy in response the egregious statement of “I download all my Microsoft software from Torrent sites”. I am not the Microsoft Piracy/Licensing police. There is a whole division that deals with that. But I can’t ignore the public statement of admitted piracy any more than you could ignore a public statement of “I get all my food from mckyj57’s pantry when he isn’t home”.


Microsoft didn’t pull anything. OEM Issue – see above.

Also, it should be noted that I would much rather have the OEM’s not load crapware and just provide their computers with the base O/S. But the fact is they don’t have any financial incentive to do so. Complain to the OEM’s about this, not Microsoft.



We can debate “reasonable cost” all day long. We live in a free market economy and I happen to believe that people and companies should be free to charge whatever they see fit for the products and services they provide.



Look at the size of the C:\ drive on any OEM shipped machine and then calculate the number of DVD’s it takes to replicate that. They would not be shipping a single DVD. More like 5-15 depending on what is loaded. It is simple business math. Increase margins by decreasing costs. It is a cost-saving measure of the OEM’s and it make perfect sense for them to put that on a recovery partition instead of shipping discs.

I don’t like the crapware they install and would rather see a plain O/S and have them ship the O/S DVD. But that is not what the OEM’s want.



Of course Microsoft wants the OEM’s to buy from us and not the other guy. That is business. I won’t comment on tactics simply because most of it is beyond my comprehension. But it is business and business isn’t always pretty.





You can choose to wear a condom or run the risk of contracting an STD or produce an unwanted pregnancy. People know the risks and they still take them.

You are only a victim if you don’t take precautions against becoming one.

I quoted myself in this case for the full context. “Every single manufacturer will tell you the exact same thing.” You say that people don’t like Microsoft. What about Apple? Google? Mobile Phone devices? The countless individual apps? It is not a Microsoft problem. It is an end user problem.

Using quality gas, changing your oil, checking fluids, brakes pads, and tire wear. Those are all end-user responsibilities. Some of which can result is death if not performed. Why is patching and backing personal data the responsibility of Microsoft….or Apple or Google or the Mobile operators or the countless individual application vendors?

“Backing up before booting” – I repeat yet again – this is a function of the OEM’s to provide an image that corresponds with what they provide and what they license to you. Not Microsoft.



Absolutely. I do exactly that with all of my karaoke discs. I immediately backup them up and NEVER use the original media. My Sound Choice Foundations 1-2 and Bricks 1-5 have only been in the drive to make backups.



I never used anti-virus until Microsoft Corporate policies mandated it. If you know what to do, and more importantly, know what NOT to do, I don’t believe anti-virus is absolutely necessary. But the fact is the general public doesn’t have a clue about all of that. So I absolutely recommend people use the anti-virus and anti-malware solution of their choice to protect their data.

I respect that you don’t like Windows Operating Systems. I would enjoy hearing why so I can pass the feedback on. I won’t try to convert you or any other non-Windows user, but I would like to understand why you and others don’t like Windows.



Piracy is not the only way to get things working. I would be interested in hearing about situations where you feel that is the case. We have many support options in addition to people like me that go way above and beyond to ensure that people have working systems.

-Chris

_________________
-Chris

I will repeat again -- what do you think the decision is going to be if their systems are going to cost $30.00 more and be less competitive?


You are splitting hairs.


<sarcasm>Thanks for the tutorial.</sarcasm>

..snip..

They pulled it by their policy, which had the effect of making OEMs who included copies less competitive than ones who didn't.

...

So do I. But to complain about the pushback from the people that have to live with these policies? I suppose you're free to do that, too, just like everyone is free to flip you the bird.


It doesn't take that much to recreate just the operating system.


Or you can practice abstinence. In the case of Microsoft-based virii, that's my approach.


Last Mac I bought, I got an OS on a disk. You can download it any time, once you have a license.


All of those are freely downloadable or come at nominal cost. It's easy to get a copy.


Interesting that only Microsoft defines it that way.


If you never used it, would you need to back it up?

..snip...


Try resurrecting a five-year-old Dell or HP that you didn't have an OS disk for. HINT: They'll tell you to go to EBay to try and find a copy of a disk. (And on that one, I actually tried -- and failed in a reasonable amount of time -- to create a backup disk.) It was dead iron, at least from a Microsoft Windows standpoint. I had zero legal choices, which meant I had to buy another machine (and another copy of Windows). I could have tried a torrent copy of the OS, I suppose, but I don't do that stuff.

So yes, I resent Microsoft in many ways. I have paid for scores of copies, and received little in direct value in return. I am an unusual case, but you can tell from the incredible amounts of Microsoft hate that I am not alone.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

It has never been installed on a system without a genuine COA either.
I didn't actually know that simply acquiring the software to restore a system was piracy.

i still don't get it guys.
every Dell, Lenovo, and Gateway i have came with an OS disc including the Gateway i bought 2 months ago. microsoft allows it, the companies package it in the box with the computer. if it wasn't there, how is that microsofts fault?
and you all know i am a Linux advocate so i ain't sticking up for "my boy" here.

_________________
Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

I isn't. No one is saying it would be.

Well in fairness to chris I found
http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/licensi ... .aspx#faq3
He is right in most of what he says.
I am going to recommend to my boss that while we have MS COA's on all systems. (Most which can't be read)
We push linux instead.
I just learned to like Microsoft less.
My boss may not go for it.
He is as arrogant as....
Can't think now, the name escapes me.

That reminds me.
Chris, which thieving driver download site that you have to pay for is a microsoft partner.
That I found particularly disgusting.
Again It is not personal.

My point is that you are blaming Microsoft for something the OEM’s are doing. If you refuse to acknowledge that fact, then I have nothing more to debate with you.



I am not splitting hairs. The fact that you licensed it is central to this whole debate. That license agreement determines what you can and can’t do with it. The OEM version of the license in most cases binds that copy to the machine it was installed to. Retail versions have a different license and different terms. I honestly don’t know how to explain it any more simply than that.



Apparently it was necessary since you don’t seem to understand the difference between retail and OEM licensing. I won’t hold it against you because many people do not. To be fair, it isn’t an entirely clear concept to grasp. But now that I have explained it and we are all experts, this topic should never come up again, right? (I can be sarcastic too….)



Very specific question here – What Policy? I would prefer that you provide links or other reference materials instead of heresay.
The choice to include or not include rests solely with the OEM. Pure and simple. How they choose to manage their margins and profitability is up to them, not Microsoft.



If you read back through the thread, I challenge you to pick out where I have complained about pushback. I have very much tried to stick to facts. I accept that people may not like the way things are, but when they try to lay blame in the wrong place, I try to correct that.

Anyone can flip me the bird all day long if they like. How I react to it is my choice. Observers of both actions will then be left to form opinions of both parties.

Thus far, our verbal sparring has remained civil. I would prefer to keep it that way.



I have already explained why the OEM’s would not provide an operating system only disc.



Now you are just being ugly. Name calling rarely accomplishes anything beneficial. I may not like to use Linux, but I hardly consider it to be detrimental much less a virus. It is just…..another operating system.



I have 3 Lenovo laptops. All of them came with Windows O/S discs. Someone else mentioned they have purchased several machines from several different OEM’s and they shipped with O/S discs as well. So I don’t understand your point.

Since I have not purchased an Apple computer since the 80’s I can’t say whether Apple loads up crapware. I imagine not since they control the entire chain. But I may be wrong.

Do Apple’s ship with non-Apple software/apps pre-installed? Does their disc load just the Apple O/S? Or does it include the pre-installed software/apps?


But who has to manage that? The End-User does. Who is responsible for managing the backup and restore of the data for all of those freely downloadable apps? The End-User is.





I am not sure what you are trying to get at with this so I am going to guess. I don’t like guessing in a debate like this but you aren’t clear with what you are referring to. I apologize in advance for the “tutorial”.

The moment you turn a machine on, regardless of OEM/Manufacturer/Vendor, the data begins to change. If you want to restore to “factory default” you have to have a copy of what was on the machine before it was turned on and data started to change. Most mobile phones, including Windows Phones, Android and Apple, have a ROM that enables you to wipe an reset the device. PC/Laptops don’t typically ships with ROM’s capable of doing that so the OEM either supplies a factory restore disc or a restore partition. These types of restores will wipe the machines and restore them to what shipped from the factory.

As we have hashed out over and over, what is on the factory image is determined by the OEM, not Microsoft. Thus each OEM has its own definition and Microsoft has little say beyond the Microsoft O/S and Applications what that definition looks like.



I sense a trap here but what the heck.

In my example, it should have been clear that the original Sound Choice media gets archived and I use a “backup” for actual shows. This protects the original investment from harm and allows me to create another copy if the backup ever meets and untimely end.
In business people do the exact same thing with critical data. They make a copy of the original and work with the copy. Once the data is verified they store a new original, make a copy and work with a copy.

Bazinga! Another tutorial!

If I take your statement at face value – If I am not using it, I either throw it away, or sell it.

..snap..



I would still have a disc because I would have insisted on receiving a disc from the OEM at the time of purchase and I would have made a backup of that disc. The likelihood of me losing both is pretty slim.

Your other legal choice would be to purchase a retail copy of Windows. Perfectly acceptable. You actually do own the hardware so you can do whatever you want with that including loading any O/S you want.

It all comes down to having a backup, made by and end-user, securely stored. End-user responsibility. Accept it or expect grief in the long term.



I am bullet-proof when it comes to Microsoft haters. I have almost 17 years under my belt and in all that time, Microsoft has only grown. I certainly wish that growth was reflected in our stock price, but we are growing none-the-less and more people use Windows today than 17 years ago.

-Chris

_________________
-Chris

I honestly have no idea what you are referring to. Drivers get downloaded from the hardware manufacturer/vendor web sites or via Windows Update. I don't know of nor have i ever heard of anyone charging to download drivers. If you pay for a driver you are being scammed.

-Chris

_________________
-Chris

Give me a while, I will give you a list.
They are simple thieving gits.
Mainly Russians.

Were you completely unaware of the suit against Microsoft? If you have worked there 17 years, you certainly understand that they were sanctioned for tactics which were have found to break anti-trust laws. These included restrictive licensing agreements which prevented certain choices by manufacturers.

United States v. Microsoft, a set of civil actions filed against Microsoft Corporation pursuant to the Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890 Section 1 and 2 on May 8, 1998.


Are you telling me Microsoft doesn't restrict how they can deliver Windows? I am surprised there is not a downloadable repository at Dell, then.


I am NOT talking about you. I thought I took pains to differentiate that. I am talking about Microsoft, and its frequent and vocal complaints about piracy. And they have some reason to complain, to be sure. But the hoops they make law-abiding people jump through don't make friends, either.

My point, in it's entirety as it was from the beginning, is that there is a reason that people don't condemn piracy as strongly as they might. And the hardball tactics practiced by Microsoft are part of that reason. As are the tactics of the RIAA and the MPAA.

Microsoft, as you are so ably demonstrating, is able to play lawyer and battle every point. That doesn't make many friends. It isn't a coincidence so people many people don't see much wrong with piracy.


But I thought you said you got one?


I didn't suggest the OS was a virus. I meant that I don't have to deal with viruses, running Linux. I am sorry if that was not clear. I don't use Windows on my family computers, because I don't want to deal with viruses. Our friends seem to be constantly getting them. Since we don't game, we don't need Windows. (Other than for my karaoke hosting.)


Am I insane or something? I haven't received a Windows disc with a computer for years. I get the driver disks, but no disk which allows me to install windows from a single disk. How does this behave?

And I thought you said the manufacturers couldn't or wouldn't put it on a single disk? Which is it?

It typically includes everything in the base, with the ability to download more from a repository. Pretty much just like Linux, except you need an account which comes with the OS.


And they can go to the company web site and find it there. That is standard these days, if you haven't noticed. But try that with Microsoft Windows....


Critical data is critical data. You back that up or perish. (I am actually famous among my clients for having backups at all times, whereas many people fall down in that area.)

Operating systems are -- or should be, in my opinion -- a dime a dozen. When they are made unavailable, or available in such a way that you need a specific copy mated to a specific machine, it is a pain in the petootie. Fact is, many users -- like me, who can't be bothered because I so seldom use Windows -- will not perform the backup. So they pay through the nose -- which is what Microsoft intends by making things difficult. I understand this. I also understand why people don't particularly like it, because of the once-every-few-years hassle I have with trying to recreate a Windows machine.


Bully for you. I didn't receive a copy of the disk, and when I tried to create the restore copy via the procedure they gave me I wasted hours of my time then gave up.


For an unacceptable cost in this case. $150 dollars to resurrect that machine made no sense.


I expect cost. Again, it is not a problem for me. But I don't have to like the policies that make it difficult for the end user to get a copy of the operating system that works on their specific computer.


Again, Microsoft is a good company. I find many of their products to be top-notch. I have a couple of close friends that work there. I don't like their OS products, because they are so insecure and are such a pain.

Apple's approach is different -- they just charge up the wazoo for everything, unapologetically. Take it or leave it. Most leave it, but a few take it. Microsoft is different. They are pervasive, and their policies due to their monopoly have a lot more reach. They are a lightning rod as a result, and would catch some flak anyway. My point is that their past policies -- and present ones -- don't help that much.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

They are likely scam sites then. They may claim to be Microsoft Partners, but no valid partners charge for driver downloads.

If you have links, please send and i will make sure they get to the appropriate folks.

-Chris

_________________
-Chris

Perfectly aware and those issues were resolved. You are living in the past. You are still blaming Microsoft for something that TODAY OEM’s have total control over.

1) That is a suit. You are not referencing any Microsoft policy.
2) That suit is resolved and does not apply to what is going on today.


I have explained this repeatedly already.

Microsoft has every right to “complain” about piracy, fight piracy, sue pirates. Just like anyone else does when their intellectual property is being stolen.
The hoops you refer to are not nearly as fiery as you suggest. You simply have not taken the time to figure out how to ensure that you have what you need. Others in this thread have noted that they have purchased machines from different vendors and they received O/S discs. Your experiences may have been poor and I am sorry that was the case, but many more people have it figured out than don’t.

The RIAA and the MPAA both go after individuals for infringement. Like 12 yr olds on P2P sites. Microsoft goes after very large scale piracy operations. I challenged Jerry in another thread to link to cases where Microsoft has pursued individuals for pirating software. I also stated that he may actually find some cases but that they would be few and far between. Microsoft focuses on large scale counterfeiting operations and OEM’s that distribute illegally on a large scale over long periods of time. If you want to call those hardball tactics then I agree. I wish Microsoft were even more aggressive in this pursuit. But you can not apply “hardball” to individual people.

I am about as far removed from being a lawyer as there is. But I will try to ensure that facts gets stated vs conjecture.

Friends don’t steal from each other. When they do, friendships are strained and people lawyer up if warranted.

End-User Piracy has become a social issue. The ease with which individuals can obtain music, video, software or anything else in a digital format has made it practically impossible for any business that distributes intellectual property in a digital format to control it.
That same ease of obtaining it has stripped away the stigma of it being wrong. If it is so easy, simple and fast to get a song, video, software, blah blah blah, how could it be wrong? THAT is one of many factors that promotes piracy.


I don’t buy OEM. I build my own. The few OEM’s I have obtained have had recovery discs or I had them ship one to me.

My mistake. I misread that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_malware
Linux has them. But it is a case of what I call – King of the Hill Syndrome. No sense writing viruses for an operating system that only commands a very small percentage of market share. Since malware these days is focused on capturing personal information with the intent of gaining access to accounts to steal money, the virus writers focus on the dominant platform.

In all the years of computing (since the 70’s) I have never been hit with malware or a virus. I have been 100% Windows since 1994. I have educated my friends and family on what they can and cannot do and there have been very few instances in that same period of time where they have been hit. I don’t have to deal with viruses because they are a non-issue for myself and my family. It has less to do with the platform and more to do with knowledge and education.

Some manufacturers ship include it, some you have to request, others only provide a recovery partition. And the manufacturers handle different models differently. You would really need to ask them since they handle it. Not Microsoft. (déjà vu)

The OEM’s do what they want. I also said discs (plural).

If you buy Windows through the Microsoft Web site, you can download it from there. Which, by the way, is exactly what Apple does. The exception is that they are their own OEM so they don’t have to concern themselves with licensing arrangements. Microsoft does have to consider OEM license agreements. You still fail to see the different between OEM and Retail.

Someone call Ripleys! We agree on something!

I agree it is a pain in the butt. Even though I am clearing up misconceptions and trying to sticks to facts, no one has bothered to ask my opinion on how I think it should be handled.

My Opinion:
If someone wants to create an operating system and charge for it, so be it. People will pay for it if they like it.
If someone creates an operating system and distributes it for free, so be it. People will use it is they like it.

Personally, I wish the OEM’s simply installed the O/S, dropped the O/S disk in the box (or make it available to download for people that have obtained it legally) and be done with it. But the OEM’s don’t do that and I have zero control over it. It is what it is.


If you ever give Windows 7 a shot, you will find it is much different than it was.

Understandable. But you can actually find legal copies of Windows much cheaper than that.

I respect that opinion.

I am not even going to debate O/S security. Suffice it to say that security is somewhat relative. If Apple or Linux had a 90% Market share, the bad guys would be all over them punching holes in them. There are likely many vulnerabilities in Apple and Linux OSes that no one will ever find because they aren’t worth looking for by the bad guys.
Give this a read –
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/feat ... 12TwC.mspx

Well said.

-Chris

_________________
-Chris

"Just"? That's my time you are talking about.



And the nastiness -- and wrongheadedness -- of the IP vendors contributed greatly to that. In Microsoft's case, much of it is in the past. But they are still paying the piper.

As I have said before, it's not like no one told them this was going to happen. They could have gone to download sales early on, and help developed a culture of easy and reasonable licensing along with building of property rights. Instead, they went for "us against them" and locks which they were told would never work.

The iTunes model, with a lifetime credit for the song, along with rights you could build up with an increased music library, would have worked well. Instead RIAA opted to try and continue their doomed album policy.


That's now my approach, too. For years I bought them pre-built because I didn't think it made sense to waste my valuable time doing something they charged so little for. Then I discovered how easy it is these days to assemble a reliable computer.


They always have. But Windows was low-hanging fruit for a very long time.

Still, you have always had to be careful with Linux too. Crackers like to get their hands on servers. And since they are directly connected to the Internet, they are easier to get at.


As far as culpability of the individual, there were moments where if you connected a newly-installed Windows machine directly to the Internet -- as many cable vendors did by default on install -- to the net for *8 seconds* you had a 50% chance of being infected by a worm. And you and I are not normal cases. I too have had many Windows machines in my office and home for many years, and the number of viruses that they have gotten you can count on the fingers of one hand. In fact, I've probably had more Linux compromises than Windows, believe it or not. (Mostly because my Windows systems are always behind a NAT.)


I think I will pass, and see what I can do about getting the disk. We just heard from someone who went through the same thing I did with Windows XP.


Cheapest I found was an OEM version, which I wasn't eligible for. And 1G with Windows 7 makes no sense -- I needed the XP that came with it.


To be sure there is some of that. I know that, too, because the software I have written has had security holes that were found out when it hit a wider audience. (And probably still has many hidden ones.)

But there were huge parts of Windows design that contributed mightily to the problem, in ways that should have been foreseen. The design of ActiveX was an absolute abomination.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Microsoft do not like you humans very much do they.

From http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/licensi ... .aspx#faq3

Q. Are system builders allowed to create a "ghost image" CD and ship it along with the system for OEM customers?
A. No. System builders may not offer a recovery solution with removable media (a recovery CD, for example)—it is prohibited by the terms of the Microsoft OEM System Builder License. A full version of the Windows operating system is provided on a CD in the Microsoft System Builder Pack for each end user, and the CD must be transferred to the end user at the time of sale. The hologram CD acts as the system builder recovery media.

your right, including a microsoft original hologramed disc insted of a comp builders disc is absolutely horrible......wait.......
"A full version of the Windows operating system is provided on a CD in the Microsoft System Builder Pack for each end user, and the CD must be transferred to the end user at the time of sale."
so if there is no disc with the computer when you get it home from the store, the COMPUTER BUILDER has broken the agreement they made with Microsoft and stole your disc.
Microsofts fault how?

_________________
Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

I'm sure Cris has an answer, but I understand the computer vendor can ship the disc of not.

I know Dell will add the disk for $10.00 if requested.. and even if you fail to request the disc,

you can call Dell and they will ship it.. Same price..

Chris will have all the stock company answers.
Did a lot of conflicting reading today on Microsoft licencing.
Like Micky say's... Microsoft pull the manu's strings.

Oh and for those of you a little techie.
Stop being.
Upgrade your system and you need to buy a new microsoft licence.
Rarely on planet earth have I seen so much manipulation and greed.
For...
Something that doesn't work correctly in the first place.
Takes infinite updates...

Try buying a car that way.

Oh and I have not pirated by acquiring the software.
Microsoft admitted it is legal.
They will even sell you a new coa because it is no longer readable.

Really strange that the manu's all use the exact same poor quality licences.
Like one place makes them.
Controlled by... Guess who

Thank God Microsoft is the driven snow.