Karaoke Forums

Okay.

Let me start off by saying I have a very strong, unmoveable opinion regarding certain forms of vocal processing. By no means do I wish to censor or discourage anyone's opinons, but let me be very clear - No one will ever, under any circumstances change my opinion on this. I am simply starting this thread as a means of finding out where I land in the population on this subject.

I despise Harmonizers and AutoTune. They are an abomination and in my opinion are destroying music. It saddens me that they exist at all.

I am a firm believer in true talent when it comes to vocals. You either have it or you don't. And even those that don't can sing certain styles or songs and still sound great. But I absolutely hate that using AutoTune/Harmonizing has run rampant in the music industry over the last decade. Especially when it is over the top and in your face as much of today's popular music is.

I realize that pitch correction and synthetic vocal harmonizers have been around for a long time and most people are oblivious to it. However, the over the top use of both in today's music has made much of what is produced very disposable and unmemorable. It is one thing to use occasionally to produce a unique sound. When an industry adopts them as the dominant form of producing music, it distorts expectations and takes much away from truly talented artists.

Consider this - Peter Frampton used a "talkbox" (also known as a "VoxBox") for the live version of "Do You Feel Like We Do". This is undeniably one of the best live rock and roll recordings of all time.

While this technique has been used by many artists over the years (Aerosmith's "Sweet Emotion" and Bon Jovi's "Living on a Prayer" quickly come to mind), because it gets used sparingly, the songs remain memorable.

What if EVERYONE used this on EVERY song they performed from that time forward? How memorable would the afformentioned tracks be now?

The first time I heard obvious use of AutoTune was on Cher's "Believe". I can't stand the song, but at the time I thought the use of AutoTuning was at least interesting. Little did I realize that the rest of the music industry would adopt using obvious AutoTuning as the defacto style of producing pop music.

AutoTuning has a valid use as a means of doing pitch correction for studio recording sessions (everyone has a bad day now and then). I accept it's use in this scenario as a means of saving some time/money during production and even helping save the voice of the singer. I would still prefer the technology not exist at all, but again, I accept it for those specific scenarios.

Beyond that, I feel it has no place in the music industry other than the occasional song similar to VoxBoxing. AutoTuning has allowed artists with no true talent to basically fart into a microphone and come out sounding like Celine Dion. It has saturated the music industry with untalented singers and forgettable music. It lowers the bar so that anyone that can speak can be turned into a huge (and very short-lived) pop star. I also believe that it falsely closes the gap between truely talented vocal artists and those with at best, mediocre capabilities.

Vocal Harmonizers have and even more sinister impact. Instead of hiring talented backup singers to harmonize with the lead singer, the harmonizers deceptively produce the impression of there being more than one person involved. There are many, many great backup singers that are not working because someone can press a button and magically produce virtual singers in the background. Furthermore, synthetic harmonization has become so over the top that people are starting to recognize that it impossible for any group of people to sound that good.

I sang in barbershop quartets when I was in high school. It took four people and lots of practice to produce the tight knit sounds we made. Now, with AutoTune and harmonizers, a single person can belch into a microphone and come out sounding like The Buffalo Bills.

To be clear, I am perfectly fine with effects like delay, echo, reverb as a means of producing certain types of acoustics. It is unrealistic to expect artists to rent a cathedral to record there. But there are no natural spaces in the world that correct pitch or create phantom singers.

I am interested in hearing other opinions, but don't waste your time trying to convert me. It just won't happen.

-Chris

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-Chris

autotune makes me want to slit my wrists. just punch in the flubbed note and move on if you must, but to leave it to a computer to fix......
one exception, t-pain.
he showed in a video interview a while ago that he uses it like an instrument. how he works his voice makes it do certain things. i do not personally like the end result, but to see how he can manipulate it at will by using his voice does show great control of his own chords.
preach on brother Chris

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

It is just another effect. You can use it or abuse it. The Beatles experimented with electronic effects ("Strawberry Fields") so it is not all that shockingly new. Even as far back as the Rudy Vallee days, he had a distorted effect through using a megaphone. And it actually takes a bit more to sing with it live and stay on tune so it is not a complete talent replacer. To dismiss it dismisses the music of a generation and cuts you out of appealing to a certain segmen of audience.

We use it but it is not a dominant force of the show. It is just one more bit of added fun. I am sure there were people who decried the invention of the microphone as replacing talent by amplifying a voice instead of a singer being able to belt it to the rafters on their own a la Ethel Merman.

A true talent can hold attention with just a voice and a guitar. But that doesn't stop a talent from experimenting and pushing the boundaries and taking advantage of new technology.

By the way, "Believe" is one song we have yet to get to sound correct using the autotune live. In listening, it sounds more like it was just used on certain notes at the end of some lines and not all through the song--more like a studio effect. Wonder how she manages it live. Our main autotune songs are "Dynamite," "Fireflies," "OMG," and "Smooth." But we are mainly in a cowboy bar. We would probably expand if we had a younger crowd.

Oh--I'm 59 and I have tried singing with it--it is fun.

Oh--there has always been alot of lesser talents that somehow had a hit in the music industry. Way back then, they would "double track" them to make their voices sound stronger. And rock and roll has always been about having a voice or personality or song-writing ability that somehow connects to people rather than having a classically good voice. Bob Dylan is the obvious example. But even Jimmy Buffett will admit to not being the best singer or best musician yet he struck a chord with alot of people. It seems more complicated than just vocal talent.

No worries.
Will never try and alter a closed mind.

First, let me state that I am in complete agreement with Chris- in regard to use by professionals. If you're a pro, sing like one. If you can't sing a particular song, sing another. That's what you're paid for.


On the other hand, karaoke singers aren't professionals- though there are certainly many who could be if they had the interest.

As far as, um..less talented singers go, If I can help them sound their best and feel good about themselves, who does it hurt. If by doing so they tell their friends that for some reason they sound better at my show than anywhere else- hey, nothing like good word of mouth advertising.

Above and beyond the usual effects, I have at least one or two mics hooked up to a mini board with which I can change vocal pitch or key and equalize separately. I don't use it often, but I have a few regulars that I use it for without their knowledge. I'm not being sneaky, it's simply that I find if they are aware of what I'm doing, they seem to attempt to change their singing style. This could even be involuntary, but it happens.

So, bottom line: Pros no, karaoke singers yes.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

How do you do use it without their knowledge? I have found that biggest problem with a novice singing with any kind of autotune is the natural desire to "correct the correction" which ends up sounding much worse than auto-tune itself. Basically the voice that they hear in their head is different from the voice coming out of the speakers and they try to compensate, which makes the box compensate, rinse/repeat. Or do you have a second monitor feed sans correction? What unit do you have?

As for Auto-Tune in general, it's an effect that has it's place and can sound cool when used correctly, but has certainly been overdone as of late.

Bazza, it is amazing how quickly the singer adapts to the autotune in a live situation. In fact your brain gets so used to it that when I tried to sing he same song in the car without the autotune, I had trouble remembering how to do it and was off at first. But then I am off normally....

Chris

I agree 100% and will support you until death..

Wait, what was the question?

Many professional recordings have been "Tweaked" prior to releasing.. It's just a fact of life..

The "Concert Videos" are cuts from an entire touring season, based upon not being able to sing on key all night/every night..

I'm not saying it's wrong, but you must know "Studio Recording" is done over and over until the Engineer has the quality he/she needs..

I'm sure I could use Autotune, if I could just find it..

Lep. sang with the autotune while I was there.
It was the highlight of the night for everyone.
The dance floor was full.
She is actually very good.
Without it she has a good voice.
She won't admit to it.

I am of the opinion ,in the right situation , right venue , right song, right voice and in moderation most effects can be used..BUT used consistently for every song in every situation and venue then it can be truly awful.

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"Your Never Fully dressed without a smile."

To Visit my website Rob Star Entertainments Click the link in my profile

"Strangers are just friend we haven't met yet"

I believe this is more true today (with Autotune that is) than in the past. Now it seems EVERY new song has it at least one point in the song.
Anyone see the Simpsons episode where Bart, Nelson, Milhouse & Ralph
where formed into a 'boy band'? This isn't actual video, but in the very beginning you can hear how they really sound, then the producer making a comment (adjusting the autotune) then you hear them singing afterward



On the very last song you can hear them get the autotune turned off in the midst of performance and they go back to their regular voice.
Here is no talent singers made great - yes not real, it's a joke! But I think this could apply to several 'pro' pop artists of today too!

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I knew this topic swould result in lots of comments and I expected people to disagree with me. I honestly respect that.

In professional music I can't stand AutoTune. It has become a standard. Harmonizing is the same thing but in most cases is much sneakier. As a result I dislike it even more because of the sneakiness.

As an example - I can't say with 100% certainty that Rascal Flatts uses harmonizers, but I am willing to bet they do. The sound they have is beyond perfect. It sounds fake to me. I love harmony but the way many of their recordings sound is way to perfect for me to believe they can actually sing that way without help.

In reading the comments, I can see where either of these could be a fun thing to do in karaoke. I will modify my position somewhat such that if either were to be used purely as an entertainment enhancer then it is more acceptable. And I don't mean entertainment as in trying to get the singer to sound better than they are. I mean entertainment as in sounding humorous or over the top or to get a specific reaction out of the audience. In short - use them to make it fun and entertaining and use it extremely sparingly.

I stand 100% by my dislike of using either of those to make a singer sound like they are more skilled than they actually are.

-Chris

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-Chris

Excellent question, Bazza, and "correct the correction" is exactly what they tried to do.

First, the unit that I use is not an auto-tune device. It's simply a miniature sound board that has the desired properties to be used as described. It is a low end item called a Karaoke Ninja that was put out by Nikkodo/ BMB ( Yup, the same folks who put out those crappy Nu-Tech discs) . A fifty dollar P.O.S, but it works for this application. It's about the size of a paperback, and it's velcroed to the inner sidewall of my rack- it can't be seen even though I stand in front of my equipment. It has both pitch control AND digital key control, plus the other effects.

Actually, what I found was that those who "less talented" enough for me to actually use the device just think they're doing a good job on the song, as they hear themselves from the speakers. Maybe they're just too tone deaf to notice, but I'm guessing they hear more of the processed vocals than they do their own voice.

However, as you mentioned, if I TOLD them I was, say, dropping their vocals, they would actually try to lower their singing voice, making things worse. Keep in mind that one's voice always sounds different in one's head than it's actual production, which is why many folks are surprised when they hear a recording of their voice, be it speaking or singing..

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Every now and again you just don't know what type of effect to put on a vocal to bring out the best in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XePFsTTD ... re=related

Wow that received and applause?

Oh and thanks jerry12x that's 2 mins and 35 seconds I'll never get back.

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My statements, opinions and conclusions are based on my own personal experiences, observations, research and/or just my own $.02. I'm not a "cheerleader", but that doesn't make me a Pirate.

My favorite KJ simply leaves the voice track up and I lipsync..

Excellent point. If the singer is so badly "tone deaf" they cant hear they are off in the first place, they probably won't notice the correction either.