Karaoke Forums

For the record.......

I am not going into an establishment, guns-a-blazin', screaming, "You have a pirate KJ! Get rid of them, or else!!!".

I am primarily marketing myself. If the establishment does not have karaoke, I try to get a show with them. Piracy doesn't usually come into the conversation except on the fringe when I note that I am certified.

If I find that a venue has karaoke, I immediately state that I am not interested in taking shows from anyone. I then ask what nights they do karaoke and if they do it in house or hire someone in. If they hire someone in, I ask who (know your competition/market space). If the conversation allows for it, I provide a couple of business cards and ask them to give one to the host. I ask them to let the host know that if they ever need a back-up or a night off or even if the host is looking for another gig, to give me a ring. I would be happy to help. As time allows, I try to make it out for a show just to check things out and talk to the host myself.

In the cases where a host operates illegally *and* the venue willingly goes along with it, I am not going to ignore that. I will let the manufacturers know.

Also, keep in mind, I am in the very early stages of this. Certain approaches may work better than others and will require course corrections.

-Chris

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-Chris

Whatever you want Chris..

And to answer your point blank question: There are already pirates in this city. I mind MY business and focus on doing a great job - and THEY can't touch me.

Doesn't matter if they have a gazillion "songs"

Doesn't matter if they offer to do a night for $25 + beer.

I don't sell fear, I sell an entertainment service.

And that's why I won't let my venue get sucked into buying fear (or any legal problems) either.

Well, Chip, I think it is a shame that you are willing to look the other way just because you have all you need and you feel safe in your little bubble.

Reminds me of the news stories about how a crowd of people watch someone get beaten down in a public place. The onlookers mind their own business while an innocent soul's life may be at risk. Occasionally, one or two people get involved and rescue that person. Sometimes they are even at risk while offering assistance. Sometimes it gets filmed and uploaded to YouTube.

What role would you play, Chip?

You certainly aren't the victim. You have things under control. You are safe from harm. Must be someone else.

A kindly rescuer? You have already made it perfectly clear that won't be you. To much involvment. And no vested interest. Most importantly, you just don't care.

An onlooker? That isn't exciting enough for you. Not enough for you to just sit back and watch. You won't help, but you can't just keep quiet about it.

The cameraman. Yes. Deceptively safe behind a lens to the world around you. Maybe even cheering on the carnage from time to time. The faintest of smiles and a hint of enjoyment in your voice.

-Chris

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-Chris

Wow....

Well said Chris, well said....

For once I agree with Chip, yep just once. Ok there may have been a few others. There WILL be some fallout over these lawsuits and venues becoming gun shy of Karaoke in thier club. Time will tell just how much...With SC hitting the deep pockets it seems thier more after the $$$MONEY$$$ than catching the bad guy...

Jon

Reality is a dog-eat-dog world. Sorry. I'm not in business to help the pirates OR my own competition - no matter how "friendly" they appear. Does MicroSoft "help out" Apple or would they prefer to see them gone?

Your suggestion equates to me doing what I can to "help" the pirate purchase their music at a reduced (and financed) rate for the sole purpose of continuing to be my competition. Sorry, I don't help out my competition either - whether or not they can take my job.



Who exactly is getting "beaten down" in this situation? Is it the "legal" KJ's that get beaten down by being sued like Rodney? The "onlooking cheerleaders" that support SC didn't have a problem suggesting he was lying or that he wasn't even Rodney. Dog-piling by the cheerleaders seems to be some kind of sport with them.

Is it the legal KJ's being "beaten down" that will find it difficult to find work because venues will start dropping it like a poisonous toad? And as work becomes even more scarce, the "former pirates" will again have a financial advantage to drive the price further down the sewer....

So who exactly is "doing the beating" again?



If you recall, I got banned for a month for being one of the people "who got involved" by defending Rodney, so your scenario suggesting that I simply sit on the sidelines is nonexistent. In the meantime, you're busy supporting the tuna fishermen with their fish bats.

(by the way; in the 10 years or so that I've been here, "getting involved" was the only time I was ever banned for anything. How does that figure in your "not caring" portrait?")



Won't help who? The one(s) doing the beating? You are a newbie... Tell you what: Go get yourself an account at Pacer (not the justia junk) and look up your heroes. Yep you'll find a lot of suits against pirates there.... but look back and actually spend a few pennies to read the legal action(s). You'll find that your heroes produced a LOT of their libraries that KJ's like me and others paid top-dollar for, "without permission." That's right, and gee-whiz - in other parts of the world, it's call piracy. Scope it out before you go shooting off your mouth on who-is-who.

Check out the latest documents on the CAVS suit against SC and ask yourself; "If SC did license their music, why did they refuse to produce those licenses (call it an "audit" if you like) when required to do so for a deposition?" What could the reasoning be for refusing to allow themselves to be "audited" for these licenses? Give me a reason that's believable because I certainly can't find one.

Interesting how they want every KJ to show their discs, but they won't prove that the very product they've been selling clearly marked as "Used by permission" - and now suing for - was even legal to start with.

But that's okay with you, you don't care.... do you? Now, who is supporting the "pirates?"



If only it were that easy.....

You want to berate me because I'm so vocal... I get it. In the meantime, go back through these forums and you'll find that I've created some really terrific - if I say so myself - marketing materials (like posters) to everyone here to use in their businesses, free. (Check with Bazza, or Diafel or any number of people who have downloaded them) I've also written and given away songbook software (it recurses your drive, gathers the info from the filenames and produces *.rtf files ready to print) and that was also FREE.

Even when these lawsuits hit, I'm the one spending my money to share the actual court documents that I've purchased with the KJ's here to keep them informed.

And you can sit there and claim I have "no vested interest?"

I've invested plenty of time and effort and money into helping this "industry" in ways that I can. Have you invested one dime in this industry other than purchasing music and equipment for yourself?

So when it comes to "helping the industry" I've done my part in a "positive way" and I defy you to show me one shred of evidence of SC giving anything back to this industry that didn't require you to send them some money first.

You're welcome to paint me as the "evil monster from the dark side" all you want, it simply shows that you are new to this business. But please get all your facts straight first.

"Does MicroSoft "help out" Apple or would they prefer to see them gone?"

Yes. MS provides software to run on the Mac platform. Both companies have Operating Systems that require software for productive functionality. The OS market is so completely dominated by Windows(all flavors) that even Mac users run the MS OS on their systems.

You'll have to find a better analogy.

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Never the same show twice!

Don't need to. If you're only nixing the analogy, the premise is still valid. Pick any other analogy that works for you.

That's not helping Apple, that's creating additional markets (revenue) for their own software to market shares lost to Apple.

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My statements, opinions and conclusions are based on my own personal experiences, observations, research and/or just my own $.02. I'm not a "cheerleader", but that doesn't make me a Pirate.

Apple is not illegally competing against Microsoft. They produce interesting, compelling products that compete against Microsoft products fairly in the market place.

And Microsoft has helped Apple before -

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/08/opini ... s-eye.html




My suggestion is this - you knowingly allow pirates to operate illegally in your area. Period. You do nothing about it. Period.



We both know there will be elements of enforcement that are unsavory. What happened to Rodney was very unfortunate. On the flip-side, it also seems the issue was rectified rather quickly and that Rodney is no worse for the wear, but I suppose I should follow up with him just to make sure.

For the purposes of my comments. I am sticking to the known pirates that people like you are choosing to ignore and allow to operate.



Speculation. We don't know what the long term trend will be regarding venues choice of doing karaoke or not.

Are you really going to fault the person being beaten for throwing a few swings of their own to defend themselves?



I did not know you got banned. Also very unfortunate though now that I think about it, it was only slightly more quiet and peaceful for a short time here. But I imagine bans are put in place for a reason and a line was crossed.

My support of the tuna fisherman (Sound Choice) goes as far as getting audited and staying in compliance. I do not like HOW they regulate, but I support WHY. My support of WHY includes not ignoring a known pirate. It is my duty as a citizen to report a suspected theft of a car to the police. Currently, I can only report suspected theft of karaoke music to the manufacturers.




This is as far as I will follow your deflection -

I have much better things to do than read a bunch of legal documents that I don't have the skills to interpret. Plus, I spent my money on something that was useful to me - audits and appropriate certifications. Not a copy of a legal brief that 1) is already closed and/or 2) Is beyond my capability to impact. That battle is being fought by the people that can fight it. The issue was brought up by the folks that can impact it. We (Hosts) should do more at our level to impact what we can.

Stick to what we as hosts can do to directly impact what goes on in our sphere of influence.



I do not wish to berate you because you are vocal. It is pretty clear that I am vocal as well. I am just pointing out that you are turning a blind eye to a real problem in the industry - piracy. To me it appears you do so mostly because you dislike Sound Choice so much that you are willing to allow piracy to exist almost as a means of getting back at them somehow.

I am not denying that you do good things for the industry. But you can't claim that you are benefitting everyone with some marketing and free software if you turn a bling eye to known pirates in your community. I would be interested in seeing how you react if a pirate used your marketing materials and your software to pitch their show at your venue and take it from you.

As for PACER/JUSTIA - You should save your money (though it isn't a lot of money according to what I just tabbed out to look at) I don't think posting those links educate so much as inflame. It is pretty clear from the arguements that spring up everytime someone posts a link to a case, that no one here knows how to interpret them properly. The only qualified person that can seems to be HarringtonLaw. It makes me smile every time I see people argue with him because they think they know the law better than a lawyer. It would be nice to have an attorney that is not affiliated with the manufacturers here to interpret things as well.



Are you saying that my investment of thousands of dollars to buy music directly from the manufacturers doesn't help the industry? I may go out of my way to find tracks through private parties, but I have still spent a significant amount of my money supporting the manufacturers by buying directly from them as well. That goes to the root of the problem and is the most direct action any karaoke host can take. Buy your music legally.

Some less expensive things I am doing......

I asked this very forum for some assistance in researching an article I am writing for a local karaoke magazine. That request was made several days ago. No responses yet. The article is meant to educate Venues, Hosts, and Singers about the state of the industry. At no point do I call out any of the manufactures or their actions. I don't cheerlead for Sound Choice or anyone else. There is no fear or threat in it. Jusy facts, education, and guidance.

I have met with a number of karaoke hosts in my area to talk about forming a local organization to help combat piracy, raise awareness, and educate venues, hosts and singers.

I have helped 2 hosts start the process of converting their illegal libraries to legal ones.

I am also creating some marketing materials and have started testing them in my area. If I get a positive response I will be happy to share them with the forums. If not, I will tweak until satisfactory, then share.

I too am developing some software and applications for use my hosts and singers. In fact, I have a project that I am working on that I am going to pitch to the manufacturers that I hope will help everyone.

As you said, I am a newbie. I have focused on getting my ducks all in a row. Now that is taken care of, I am thinking at larger scales.



Again, the seething disdain for Sound Choice you hold clouds your vision.

I knew of a guy once that by all rights was a great guy. He had a wife and kids and took care of them. He was well known in his community and was in fact adored by the same. He elevated an industry to a near god-like status in his community. Yet he chose to look the other way when a despicable situation was brought to his attention. As a result, many innocent people were harmed and a community was horribly damaged. The industry he worked so hard to promote is now in a state of disarray.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Paterno

What ever good he did is overshadowed and wiped out by looking the other way.



I don't think you are evil nor a monster. I do think that you have an unmovable disdain for Sound Choice that clouds your vision of the industry as a whole. You let whatever ill will you have toward Sound Choice spill over into every single discussion abouy piracy we have. You ignore the real issue of piracy and instead focus on how much you disagree with what one manufacturer is doing to combat it.

I don't like HOW Sound Choice goes about it either. But I don't go about denouncing them as a "cancerous brand" just because I don't agree with how they go about rooting out pirates.

I like being the new guy. I think I can bring some fresh ideas to the table. Challenge the status quo. I want to build my business and still be doing this 10 or even 20 years from now. But, with all due respect, I don't want to end up as jaded as you 10 years from now. The way I see myself preventing that is by doing things differently and encouraging others to take some action instead of sitting idly by.

Finally, my whole point to this is that just a like a neighborhood watch rallies a community to report crime in their neighborhoods, karaoke hosts can, and should, report crime in theirs. As long as we look the other way and allow the criminals to work in our communities, we will be a part of the problem.

-Chris

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-Chris

Cris You believe everything a lawyer tells you? Especially one representing SC

Excellent analogy Chris.

I focus my energies on MY OWN BUSINESS - not others.

And here's the part you don't realize: I do NOT "assist pirates" with cheaper, financed products and a promise not to sue them to enable them to continue to decimate my loyal customers who paid up to 5 times as much for the same music.

But that's apparently okay with you to assist the pirates, it's some type of crime to you if I decide "not to assist them?"

Not financing, enabling and "legalizing" pirates IS "doing something." Period. You choose to help them -- good for you. Pretty soon all the pirates in your are will be legal.... and they will still be there competing against you... So what's the improvement/incentive again?



No, you're not sticking to anything. Just as you claim that I'm "turning a blind eye" to the pirates, you are doing the same for all the LEGAL KJ's that are out there. You don't care about them at all. Let 'em all get sued... Let 'em all continue to compete against pirates "made legal - cheaply" by your heroes. Tell me what the incentive is for the "legal KJ" to lift a finger? There is no advantage for an already legal KJ to do anything - there were pirates before and now with the new plan, they'll all still be there.... except now they'll be called "certified." What a crock. What did your "certification" require of you? A credit card or a paypal account? .... that's great. Your "certification" is nothing more than proof-of-purchase seal.



Speculation on your part, experienced prediction on mine. I've been in this business over 15 years Chris. I wouldn't presume to make such statements regarding MicroSoft because you have the experience and I don't.



And I still am not sure. But it's not my playground and I don't make the rules.



No it doesn't, you're support of the tuna fisherman goes far beyond buying a membership in their certification club. You've already said that you're "helping" pirates become legal, that you're ready to jump into the fray to "educate" venues, blah, blah, blah.... all Sound Choice propaganda....

And no, you certainly don't want to "ignore the pirates" because you're out to "help them" too... Help them do what? Stay in business?




RIGHT!!! Let's not look at the "real picture" here because it may just be distasteful. Now, who exactly is turning a blind eye? That would be you.

Once the shiny paint is scraped off your hero, you don't want to bother with looking at what's really beneath the surface or beyond your own nose. Your "sphere of influence" is your own "happy bubble."



You state that because I'm not out spending time and money on these pirates or helping Sound Choice that I'm turning a blind eye? Not at all. But on the other hand, I'm not out "assisting them" with promises of no legal action if they pay me and then selling them product at rock-bottom-easy-financing to keep them in business either. That's your plan to "combat" piracy.



If a pirate can take my job, they deserve it. That's how confident I am about my position. It doesn't matter what they think that they can use as a tool - including cheaper pricing. As far as them using the materials "against me" is concerned. It would be tough since they'd be using what my clients have already seen... years ago. And yes, I can claim that I am "benefiting everyone with some marketing and free software" because I have.



Having the title of "attorney" doesn't grant you sainthood nor does it even guarantee competency. "The only qualified person" as you say, has a vested interest to twist every situation into one that shines a complimentary light on his client. Period.

Your refusal to "educate yourself" on the "legal background" of your hero (SC) doesn't take a law degree or even a lot of money - just simple reading - that you are unwilling to do. Your "blind eye" whether or not you choose to admit it. So feel free to stick your head in the sand if it makes you feel better.



Your investment is a drop in the bucket compared to those "legal KJ's" like Lonnie, Joe C., myself, Harryoke, Rodney and most of the old-timers here.



What? You mean this community of thousands of KJ's have dropped what they're doing to help you? Shameful ain't it? Maybe they're busy with their own projects.


And so (like my marketing materials and software) how will you feel when one of them takes your job? It's gonna go like this:

[pirate]: "Hello Chris?... Just wanted to thank you for letting me fill in for you the other night. The club had a great time.... and they want me there regularly.... sorry to give you the bad news." -- click



Whatever. You're unwilling to look into their history and that clouds yours.



Again, this is all part the "newbie syndrome." You aren't aware of the years of "pirate discussions" that have been going on, the number of ideas tossed out to combat it nor even my participation in any of it. So how can your judge me by your recent knowledge alone? I was posting ideas and suggestions 10 years ago - so was Lonnie, Harryoke, Rodney, etc... but you weren't there to read them...



Of course you do.... as a matter of fact, you like it so much you're willing to jump on their bandwagon. Good for you if it makes you feel better.



I don't believe there is any respect (due or otherwise) here. You continually claim that I'm "sitting idly by" when alternately I can claim that you and your heroes are "enabling and assisting them" to stay in business. You're not "fighting piracy" you're "expanding piracy into unfair competition" but I wouldn't expect you to see that anytime soon.



(looking upwards) Forgive him.... for he knows not.....

blah, blah, blah.... all c. staley propaganda.....

Second, amen.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

chrisavis, you do realize Sound Choice is going to sell their product to the pirates in your market and thus make them your legitimate competitors? Or have you missed that whole discussion? Takes away your whole argument to the venues of legal host vs. pirates at that point, then whatcha' got as your advantage? Price? Hmmmmm

I think Athena has mentioned that these pirates will no longer be her competition in her area.

http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/di ... 1329479397

SOME of them won't, but the ones SC settled with and sold GEM sets to will be - don't be so naive as to miss the reason SC is bringing legal action. If they could sell product to every one of those guys, they would. The ones who exited the business are the ones who didn't have the money to buy the GEMs. But they'll be back, SC can't cover every market on a ongoing basis and they'll pop back up with a new hard drive and a new name, happens all the time.

C Stanley You Are the Man! You have my respect .

Rick Good stated
"The ones who exited the business are the ones who didn't have the money to buy the GEMs. But they'll be back, SC can't cover every market on a ongoing basis and they'll pop back up with a new hard drive and a new name, happens all the time."

Rick I can assure you that these pirates will not be popping back up in MY market as long as I am around. This is what makes the war on piracy a joint action. SC CAN cover every market on an ongoing basis IF they have help in every area. We are lucky here in Florida to have had as many lawsuit filed and as many investigations done on an ongoing basis and I believe this is due to how many KJ's are on board in the fight against piracy.

I hold no animosity against the KJ's that have settled and purchased the Gem series...they paid for their actions and most of them are now VERY anti-piracy. I have no problem with competition as long as it is fair.pre hard drive piracy days we even put IN business a number of our competitors by selling systems and disc libraries. Some would say this was a bad business move however it was a good person move. Forced to choose I would always prefer to be a good person over a good business.

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey