Karaoke Forums

"We're not auditing to determine whether you have discs, but to determine whether the discs you have match what is on your hard drive. I don't know of a way to do that without examining the hard drive." Harrington

'If the point of the audit is to verify that you own the discs, why wouldn't producing discs be enough?'" Earthling

Some have already tried "disc sharing to prove 1-1 status...that is why marking is needed. We have seen it in my area early on with large groups trying to assemble a library that could be shared.

Marked discs can be sold traded ect......with the exception of a few disc most KJ's use their discs, they are used and not perfect or shrink wrapped. We buy lots of used discs with scratches, perm maker used to write names, numbers applied ect....that does make them working copies not collectors items. If you want collectors items fine keep them shrink wrapped and dont use themb



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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

I'd almost have to disagree with size being a factor. One can run a successful show with say 1000 (probably 500 in reality) - PROVIDED they knew EXACTLY what the singers wanted to sing. But this would still have to be updated - adding new songs while deleting songs that have lost their flavor of the week. But since no-one can predict what is going to be killer vs filler - it would prove to be an almost impossible task. Example, MANY of the songs listed in the Favorite Song To Sing thread, I have either never heard done, done very rarely or even semi regular basis. When people list the most overplayed karaoke songs really surprise me because I have a completely different overplayed list, and most their overplayed songs never get touched at my show.
As far as brand, I stand by my words. Either the singer isn't educated enough to know or can't sing well and don't care either way as long as they get to sing. I know for fact that singers want and ASK for specific brands - I am getting that alot more lately since i've been told some of the kj's around here have pulled SC from their books, these singers are looking for the brands they want to sing, even though they may like the other show. But many of these people are also very good singers and want to sing with quality tracks. They are spending with the best of the rest, and are not 'prima donna' types that whine about when they are up, just want to sing to a good track as opposed to some cut-rate track.

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The audit is a condition of the media shift. I guess we're at loggerheads.



Except that there is evidence of wrongdoing--an unauthorized media-shift.



Unauthorized media-shifters cost us the time and money required to investigate their shows because they couldn't be bothered even to notify us that they were doing the media shift. If everyone who was 1:1 followed the policy to complete authorization for the media shift, we would never have to sue another one of them.



SC has no interest in making money on audits, so that's not an incentive. The $125 is what it costs us, approximately, on average. If it cost $100, the price would be $100. If it cost $1000, the price would be $1000.



When a host is original disc-based, there is no need for an audit. In fact, there is nothing to audit; ergo, no charge for an audit. If you are 100% original disc-based, email me your business name and mailing address, and I will arrange for a letter to be sent to you on SC letterhead or my firm's letterhead--your choice--explaining that a host who uses original Sound Choice-branded discs only is considered by us to be a fully compliant, legal operator, and should be treated exactly the same as a Sound Choice Certified KJ. You can share that with any venue you like, make copies of it, etc., as long as the wording is not changed. No charge.

I think you're really reaching on that point. Going on your logic alone, you have already devalued your SC 8125 disc by:

1. Removing the Shrink Wrap and opening the package.

2. You have devalued that same disc by playing it over and over again (every time someone has requested to sing a song off that disc).

3. Variation of Number 2... You have devalued that same disc by making a backup copy of it to use (and keeping the original safely away in storage somewhere). Every time you put that disc into a machine to play (even just that 1 time), there will be some kind of markings on the disc as a result of it spinning around at hyperspeed. The fact that you have put it in a machine to make a burn/copy of it, you have already created markings on the disc.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the harm in using special ink to place an ID mark on a disc. I know many KJs who use a Sharpie Marker to mark every one of their discs. Some use it as a code to find the discs easier when pulling them for people to sing from...
Example: You can place 4 discs in each page of a Case Logic holder. I know a KJ who writes 1A, 1B, 1C, 1D on the discs that sit in the first page. On Page 2, he has written 2A, 2B, 2C, and 2D on the discs in that page, etc... Now, instead of using Manufacturer codes, this KJ uses the Page codes as his songbook codes to find and pull a disc for play.

In your example of SC 8125, I have a question for you. Did you buy the disc to be used at Karaoke, or to own as a Collector's Item (like a Star Wars figurine, or an Original Barbie Doll in her NEVER OPENED packaging)? If you bought it to be used, then it shouldn't matter one bit if a small invisible marking be placed on a part of the disc where it won't affect the ability to read the data off the disc in order to continue using it.

I don't think any of our cases have appeared in reporters yet. But we've had several defendants file Rule 12(b)(6) motions challenging the sufficiency of our claims. That's one place where we would get kicked out if we weren't right about the law. Hasn't happened yet.

SC8125, while more rare than a lot of discs, is hardly unique. The cachet of 8125 is (1) its relative rarity combined with (2) the popularity of the songs on it, plus (3) its "forbidden" nature, which has practically spawned a cottage industry of urban legends.

Of those factors, factor 2 is easily the most important. They're great songs that everybody knows and that are, with a couple of notable exceptions (such as Hotel California, which, by the way, is on the GEM series), pretty singable.

I'm going to disagree with you slightly about "original form." It may be true that collectibles are more valuable if in original form. But I think you would be hard pressed to quantify the devaluation caused by the marking process in the context of a karaoke disc that has been removed from the shrink wrap.

Also, in the audits I have personally been involved in, I have marked 3 copies of 8125. No one complained.

"I'd almost have to disagree with size being a factor. One can run a successful show with say 1000 (probably 500 in reality) - PROVIDED they knew EXACTLY what the singers wanted to sing. But this would still have to be updated - adding new songs while deleting songs that have lost their flavor of the week."
Lonman

I would agree I have seen shows run off of 3000 to 5000 songs that were quite good. Size is not the main factor. My Husband is a disc "WhoreMaster" but that is just him. Each of our venues would require huge amounts of continuous work to create Mini books (3 to 5 k) and we would loose the fantasitic new songs each singer tries regularly ( one of my pet peeves are singers who only sing the same 3-5 songs (period) ) .Huge libraries are not required to run a good show but they do help.

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

I totally agree Athena, huge libraries, while not necessary for a good show ... but given the venue, they can do more than help. My longest running gig is in a hotel bar. The clientele is different every week. Yes, I have local regulars that sing the same 5-10 songs every week. BUT the out of town guests... continue to surprise me with songs I haven't heard done much if at all! I consistently get compliments on my library from the locals as well as the out-of-towners. They say I run a great show, fun and entertaining AND that they love my library and wish they had me working somewhere in their home towns. There are business people that could stay at any number of hotels along the same 'strip', but stay at the one where I work to come to my shows again and again. There's no substitute for a good KJ/DJ that has a good, large library.. hand in hand there

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SoundChoice Certification coming soon!

According to Slep-Tone Entertainment Corp. (Sound Choice) v. Lanning et al., No. 1:10cv1421 (N.D. Ohio)
http://thekiaa.org/images/Slep-tonevLanning.pdf

"Slep-Tone authorizes its customers to "format and/or media shift" and transfer the contents of a genuine SOUND CHOICE CD+G to a single computer or MP3 player, provided that the customer keeps the original copy of the CD+G in his posession as an archival copy that is not used."

This would seem to indicate that the authorization to media shift is implicit with the purchase of the CD+G as the only requirement mentioned is that the original be kept...no other requirements (i.e. an audit) are mentioned.

So...If a customer has not yet transfered their CD+G content to a hard drive, but desires to do so, would they be authorized or not. If not, then what would be required to get authorization. An audit woudn't be possible because no media shifting has yet happened.

Thanks in advance.

I keep seeing complaints about the cost of the SC audit. Was just thinking about my upcoming audit. Um, if I hadn't put the stuff on hard drive, I wouldn't have to pay for this audit. Then I remember how much time I save by NOT being a disc based show. I don't have to open the tray, put in the disc, program the track, and wait for the player to see the track...all this while a singer is on stage. I'm not totally listening to that singer because I'm reading a slip and looking for the disc, loading it etc. By the time I have the following singer up and singing, it starts over for the next singer. Also, I have less time to spend talking to the customer. Not to mention saving my back lifting the cd case of 600+ discs. I'm not getting any younger so lifting a computer is much preferable than that awful case!! Another thing: Back when I was cd- based, there was frequently that drunk or simply dishonest person who would steal a disc. He/she didn't care which one... just take it to take it. A headache for me.. having to tell people that I didn't have that song even though it's in the book (until I could replace it... IF I could replace it!).
For all the time and headaches I've saved... .$125 is a steal... $325 is a steal!

There's my two cents.. um... 325 cents?

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SoundChoice Certification coming soon!

Sound Choice told me today that I needed to go ahead and shift the media to hard drive before they would do an audit. I told them I had already 'shifted', they said 'great, we'll call you in one to two weeks to set up an audit date & time." The told me that they wouldn't be in my area so the audit would take place via Skype and that I needed to have the hard drive, songbook and disc's available. That was it, easy

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SoundChoice Certification coming soon!

@lonman - Okay. I will concede the 1000 songs point. I have been tracking the songs requested using Karma and I imagine that there are probably 1000-2000 songs over the frist two years that get requested 2 times or more. But like you say, keeping a library that tight would be a tremendous effort.

I like to encourage people to sing new songs. In the thread where people were posting the songs they like to sing, I picked up a bunch, and I mean 50+ songs that I would like to try now. Add that to the list of several hundred I already sing. I personally get frustrated when I go somewhere and a song I am in the mood for isn't in the book.

So a GREAT DJ can run a show with 1000 songs and keep people happy. I don't claim to be a great DJ. I am a decent DJ and the large variety/library gives me a larger tool set to work with.

-Chris

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-Chris

It looks like my original long reply got deleted, so I will phrase this differently:

I am surprised that you have posted in this manner. If I have misunderstood your post, please correct me, and I will accept it with good grace.

That being said, it SEEMS like you have posted that any singer that doesn't prefer SC is either stupid or untalented.

IF that is the case I would say the following:

The fact that you have worked for some years, several nights per week in one venue tells me that you are a good host. On the other hand, it limits your exposure to the rest of the world. I have worked literally thousands of shows in many venues lasting for years, and starting from SCRATCH- no prior karaoke, building successful shows. This exposure has shown me that your statement, as I understand it, doesn't hold water.

You and I may not agree with our customers choices, but that's tough crap. THEY- the people who put the money in our pockets- are the ONLY ones with the right to choose what's "best". A savvy host/businessperson will have exposed their customers to many labels, and NEVER become dependent on one. A less savvy host will get their singers used to ONE LABEL, making them library dependent. Wait, let me amend that: The host will CONVINCE him/herself that they are library dependent. The fact is, no one is.

I, who have around 30 something SC discs total, have been competing against SC prioritized libraries since SC started marketing- with no problems.

Redneck bars, adult romantic venues, biker bars, party clubs, whatever....

Sorry, but EVERY customer can't be untalented or stupid.

These folks are what keep us in the green. THEY are the only ones whose opinions count.

A good host can make almost any library work. I know a disc based guy who has run less than 1000 songs since the late 90's- little or no SC. Still going strong.

However, this involves skills other than sitting in a protected booth and saying "next"....This last is not directed at you, Lon, but is a general statement that it is the skills of the host that make a show. I'm not saying that a good library isn't important, but NO host should be dependent on one brand. I don't believe that they are, but they do- kinda scary....

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Deleted. Jim answered my post but I missed it. My bad.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

You know what? I'll take you up on that and see if it actually happens. I know that Kurt knows for a fact that I am what I claim to be.

If it DOES happen, I will make a point of posting it here on the forum. If it doesn't- well, same thing.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Nope i've done several bars over the years on top of my long run show, could be the area, but the singers we got normally wanted the SC quality and many would ask for them specifically over any other brand. Obviously educated in the different manus and know the difference. Yes there are singers that don't know the difference & could care less & in my experience these are not the greatest of singers, but they have fun - which yes bottom line is what it's about. Being at one place over the years has nothing to do with it when I get NEW singers coming in ASKING if I have Sound Choice versions because their normal places no longer carry them, this tells me that the singers know what they want to sing with.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

But why?
I feel like you are intentionally missing my point.
If I show you my disks and have them registered with you, you would know what should be on my drive and what should not.
The post audit situation would be no different whether you saw my hard drive or not.
It seems to me this would help streamline the audit process and allow more resources to be devoted to investigations.



This outcome would be the same without looking into a hard drive if you knew which discs were owned.




I’ll give you a straightforward answer.
Why not? Have you never watched a movie or read a book and tried to guess the ending?
I’m not specifically thinking up scenarios about how to beat the system. That’s your job.
I am however, a thinking individual. I think about lots of things, I like to analyze the information in front of me. There has been much discussion on the topic of these lawsuits, and many different points of view. I have been following them for quite some time and have questions. There are some things that don’t makes sense to me, and I am seeking a better understanding.
I’m somewhat surprised that my question in this instance has been treated with less than a straightforward answer.

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KNOW THYSELF

Seems to be a valid point and would cut the time/cost of the audit. The cost of the audit only covers the cost of the audit program so SC wouldn't be losing any revenue. Include a url to KJ's certified songbook and print it on their certificate. If a venue wants to validate the list they have the url right there. If the KJ adds SC disks to his/her library they notify SC and the list is updated.



I'd think this type of discussion would be helpful to SC. If there's a flaw with in the current system or even if there's not, why not try to come up with ways to improve. Do you think your client isn't interested in a more streamlined less expensive solution?

If SC and other manu's would have listened to the legit KJ's complaints, thoughts and ideas when others started beating the system (pirating) the industry might not be in the shape it's in now.

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My statements, opinions and conclusions are based on my own personal experiences, observations, research and/or just my own $.02. I'm not a "cheerleader", but that doesn't make me a Pirate.

Humour me for a minute or two.

Let's say to be certified by SC a KJ has to submit the following to SC:

* Complete listing of their SC CD's
* Personal contact information (Address, Phone#, Email, etc...)
* Business contact information (Phone, Web Address, Email, etc...)
* Maybe even a list of current venues if they have any.
* and a minimal Filing Fee

That would give SC plenty of information to check up on KJ's who have come forward as well as enough information to prosecute them if they weren't in compliance with SC's terms.

If there SC portion of their songbook is publicly available on the SC's site, any vendor, competing KJ or SC rep could easily verify what that KJ does or doesn't have permission to use in a show.

This would cut the major of expense to SC that is passed on to the KJ.

If the KJ decides to pirate SC material I'm sure the terms of being certified would greatly increase the risk/costs to that KJ.

Win, Win?


I've found that if you want to modify someone's behaviour that it's actually pretty easy if you can find a way to make it easier and more beneficial to them than their current bahaviour.

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My statements, opinions and conclusions are based on my own personal experiences, observations, research and/or just my own $.02. I'm not a "cheerleader", but that doesn't make me a Pirate.

Your plan might work for ethical/honest KJs, but the purpose of an audit is to validate that what is being stated to be true by the person being audited is indeed true.

Using the method stated above, I could imagine a scenario in which a Pirate KJ would simply find out which SC disks contain the songs he has pirated and submit that list to SC. Since nobody is auditing that the list he sent is actually the list he owns, then there would be no way to tell if he were being honest. If SC then used that list to create a songbook for that KJ and posted it on their website, then there would be no way for any competing KJ or SC rep to verify because they would see him using songs in his show that are in his dishonest songbook.

I agree that the audit process is very inconvenient for the legitimate KJs of the world, but ultimately, it may be what is necessary to clean up the industry by making it hard for the pirates to succeed. And as stated above, the purpose of the audit is to find out who is legit and who is not...so it would seem to be a necessary evil.