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I have mostly Spotlight, but they are artist discs. I have a few Star series, like the two Creeds. But I have the two Zeppelins, the Sabbath/Ozzy, The Who, both Stones, CCR, Nickelback, CSNY, and a bunch of the Headbangers. So far nobody has denied me use of my discs, but I am sure that if word got out about SC, I would not be able to use my discs.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

I believe the only scenario that can give Birdofsong (and others with the same concerns) the peace of mind she seeks is one where Soundchoice halts all suing activity completely because of the way things are currently being done. Obviously, halting litigation is not an option for Soundchoice (because it is their lifeline for survival), but changes in the way things are done could add a level of comfort.

I can envision a scenario where things work out better and it’s quite simple.
Trust but verify.
Soundchioce should trust their customers when they say they are customers, but verify that truth with some simple evidence and verify it again with a deeper investigation when warranted by evidence to the contrary.

Soundchoice already maintains and publishes a list of certified KJs as well as gem set licensees (who are certified by default).
Perhaps Soundchoice could publish a list alongside (or even above) those others of KJs that use original cds in the preferred way.

By maintaining and publishing this list Soundchoice can benefit greatly in the following ways:

1. Soundchoice will be able to identify more of their actual customers.
2. Venues will have an easier time identifying and verifying legal operators.
3. Investigators will better know what to look for and what to verify.
4. Soundchoice would be recognizing their “best” customers for their compliance in the favored method of usage.
5. The unfair competition created by the deliberate omission of original disc-based operators will cease.
6. The likelihood of mistakenly suing a disc-based operator is greatly reduced by simply checking the list prior to investigation.
7. It would help to draw the distinction between a computer operator and a disc-based operator
8. It’s good public relations.

How would a disc-based KJ get on the list?
A KJ should be listed simply by requesting a listing and providing some evidence of disc ownership.
I would think that adequate evidence could be in the form of a list of the discs owned and photographs of the corresponding discs.
This is the same evidence required by an entertainer insurance underwriter for insurance coverage and claims.

I believe this to be a fair way to treat the customer that uses the product the way Souindchoice prefers it to be used even if a small administrative fee were charged for maintaining the listing.

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KNOW THYSELF

Personally I am tired of hearing about what is good for SC, and what could benefit SC. It's time to talk more about what benefits KJs. WE are the ones buying these discs!! It's about US, not them, or, at least, it should be. They should come up with a system like CB that works on credits, you only buy what you want or need, and they know what you own through the use of those credits. Instant certification, good for us, and good for them. Everyone gets happy, and we all make money. No need for cheerleaders.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

That's up to the kj - whether they CAN play them is one thing - many computer kj's don't have the proper equipment nor the software that can play customer discs - then some just plain won't either because they feel it's too much of a hassle or feel intimidated that you have something they don't - or in some cases don't want to chance having something show up on screen that might get them into some heat so they plain don't. I can understand those kj's that choose not to play burned discs, never know if the patron actually bought the music or copied it from a ?? I will play any original disc.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I was planning on getting an inexpensive player for other people's discs.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

I thought the benefits of my suggestion to KJs would be obvious, but I'll list a few for you;

1. By being listed along with other certified KJs, the disc-based KJ will have the same opportunity to pick up a new gig from a venue where the decision maker is viewing the list because of prompting to use a certified KJ from the list by Soundchoice.
2. By being listed, a KJ who is disc-based will be less likely to be sued because the investigator will be looking closer for the discs that should be on site.
3. The mere existence of the list will help KJs because of the educational value it adds pointing out the value of disc ownership
4. The act of keeping the list and the size of the list might soften the hearts of those at Soundchoice toward KJs in general since they currently believe that 19 out of 20 KJs they might meet are stealing from them.
5. This would be a means for those who are legit and have been to get recognition that is not currently available.

Same as with Soundchoice, your instant certification from CB only comes with a large purchase or an audit.

To be clear, I am talking about KJs that play their music directly from the disc which was the topic of this thread.
I believe Chartbuster should also do a listing for disc-based KJs, but Soundchoice was the topic here.

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KNOW THYSELF

I think they should just get off our backs and let us work. AS for large purchases, that won't happen for me for a long time. And I will not be audited. I just won't use SC in my show, and I will tell my customers and venues why.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Creed and Nickelback.......am I the only one that caught that?


-Chris

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-Chris

I have an idea - SC investigator goes to a KJ show, sees the SC logo on the screen, walks up to the KJ and says, "I'm an investigator working with Sound Choice, can I see the disc you just played that song from?" How much easier does it get than that - quit acting like Ace Ventura, Pet Detective and be upfront with the investigation. No chance of a wrongful suit being filed, unless the investigator is paid for the filing.

Rick, the reason is simple. As some have said on this forum, "If you don't have a warrant, then go pound sand". So that won't fly. So the only legal way, without co-operation, is to sue and have a Discovery.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

How many times do I have to respond to this question before you finally understand?

In your scenario, there are about five things that are likely to happen.

1) The investigator gets thrown out of the bar.
2) The KJ shuts down and disappears before we have a chance to gather enough information about him, and re-starts in the next town over.
3) The KJ tells all his KJ buddies that an investigator approached him, gives a description of the investigator, and all of a sudden the investigator gets "made" at every show he goes to.
4) The KJ removes all of the SC materials from his hard drive before we have a chance to gather any evidence, making it impossible to make a case against him.
5) The KJ says, "Sure, you can see my discs, but I don't have them here. Meet me at X tomorrow and I will show them to you." Then nobody shows up and evidence gets destroyed.

When we do service of process--an "open" thing--I've had process servers assaulted, threatened, and chased. I myself have been detained by angry patrons after completing a service, and I only managed to get away unharmed by convincing them I knew nothing about the suit--"They just pay me to deliver the papers, I don't have anything against your friend, just trying to do my job."

Basically what you're trying to convince us to do is commit suicide, at least figuratively, letting huge numbers of pirates get away with it to protect whom? People who can't be bothered to follow the media-shifting policy? The two people who run only from original discs who were sued due to investigator mistakes, and dismissed immediately? I honestly don't understand the mentality that says we have to play by--well, what you are proposing aren't even "rules." We already play by the rules, and well inside them. You demand perfection from SC, but you'll excuse all manner of misconduct from everybody else.

As I said to birdofsong last night, do you really think I would send an investigator into one of her shows without arming him with full knowledge of the situation? Or, if I had information about a particular KJ, do you think I wouldn't share that with the investigator? These investigators--with the exception of the ones running the other side of this project, which I've discussed--work under my supervision, or under the supervision of the attorney handling the area, such as Ohio, the Pacific Northwest, etc. We're in communication on a daily basis when they are investigating, and sometimes hourly. My investigators have my personal cell phone number and instructions to call, day or night. One of the things that my team has become exceptionally good at is gathering information from public-domain sources about a KJ's activities, lifestyle, interests, etc., before, during, and after the investigation. The investigators know what we know going in.

I am more than happy to listen to suggestions about how we can improve our process to make it more efficient and less invasive toward people who are not our targets. But I'm not going to accept trumped-up criticism from people with a fake axe to grind, then bow and scrape and apologize and fold my tent. People who have a problem with the way MY team conducts investigations are either ignorant or malicious. Since the net result of what you're proposing is that more pirates will get away with piracy, and since it's been shown to you time and again that such will be the result, I have to that it's not ignorance.

And the end result here is that you will be pushing people away from using SC. The bunch that submit to your BS rules of conduct and your audits can have fun with that, but the rest of us do NOT want to submit to scrutiny. I don't like to be watched over. I never have. Using what you find on the net to find out about KJs lifestyle and interests is ridiculous. WHO the F do you think you are?? A person's lifestyle and interests has NOTHING to do with their business practices. Everything you are telling us is DRIVING people from using your products because people want to be free to run their businesses without your banners and signs, without your audits and extra charges. I, myself, am looking at other sites and doing research so I can use ANY other product BESIDES SC, because I don't want to be bothered by you!! You have heard suggestions and have come up with NOTHING for the KJs. ALL the solutions are for SC, which makes YOU a typical lawyer, only caring about your client.

Birdofsong has been all over you looking for a reason TO use her SC products without having to worry. She/he IS right. EVEN one mistake is UNACCEPTABLE!! You have done NOTHING for the CD based Jocks to certify them. Your inspectors have seen CD based jocks, and there has been no certification, you have named more than one in a suit, and you can't guarantee that CD based KJs WON'T get named. You have already been told, whether you want to believe it or not, that KJs are starting to shy away from SC products. What is it going to take for you people to do the RIGHT thing for US??? You offer a series that when we buy them we DON'T EVEN OWN THEM!! You have people duped into believing this is a good thing. Pay $4,500 to NOT own your purchase.

The pirates are hurting you, but I think you are damaging your reputation beyond repair. I have read online that some venues are telling their KJs not to use SC because of the scrutiny. The ONLY way to truly keep our liability down is to NOT use your product, and tell our patrons WHY we will not be using your products. I will be honest with you, I would RATHER see SC go out of business than submit to their rule. I would NEVER authorize you to look at my financial books, because it's just not your business. Your business is CDs and computer files, not books.

People like LisaH talk about SC being the best, and at one point that was true. Think about this, older karaoke singers know Sound Choice, and how good the quality of MOST of their music was. They do have some stinkers. But new comers to karaoke may not know about SC and will NOT miss them if they aren't in a KJ's collection. My buddy, who's show I work on occasion, has only ONE Sound Choice disc. He runs SGB, Pioneer, MM, All Star, some CB, some Back Stage, some All Hits, and nobody cares. He bought his system, discs and all from a friend of his. He's been in business for 13 years or so. Nobody bothers him about his lack of Sound Choice.

Not to mention that they will not be making any new music any time in the foreseeable future. It would seem to me that the demise of Sound Choice is not too far off, and it is MOSTLY their own fault. You cannot insult your customers and treat them like criminals or potential criminals and expect them to buy from you, or use the products they already own. I have 30 of SC's discs, and I am pretty sure I will only be using them for my own nights out, instead of using them for my future shows. If you and your client change their policies and tactics I may change my mind and start buying from you again, but not until then. Enjoy the reputation your client is getting, because it's going to get worse.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Smooth,
Wow.. what a read! I agree with a lot of what you say.. it sucks that we can't rip SC to hard drive.. but that's what the copywrite says. When we bought the discs we didn't think about that since we were all disc-based back then. I always wished we owned more SC because they were so superior AND my customers are a picky bunch! I wouldn't do the audit if I hadn't gone through all the SC that we have and realized that we own about 1,600 songs. ALSO, it's worth the $125 to get the certificate to use as marketing. I don't have time to wait for whatever legalities to be worked out. Sound Choice wants to stay in business and if this is what they must do.. oh well. Hard Drive sellers are the main culprit and it's too bad that more of them couldn't be caught. But the more pressure that's put on KJ's to remain legal, the less illegal hard drives will be bought. Which hopefully, will mean that I won't be undercut by illegal KJ's anymore.
The tangled web just isn't going to be sorted out easily. Mr. Harrington was hired by SC so there's no way we are going to get him to change anything. I'm pretty confident that he tells his client about the things he reads on here... so maybe some good stuff will come of everyone suggestions.
If I were disc-based I wouldn't worry about any of this.
Oh... don't capitalize the 'h'.. it's not my last initial Lisah.. pronounced.. lee-saw

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SoundChoice Certification coming soon!

Or Lee's-ahh But not Leezah or B*tch!

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SoundChoice Certification coming soon!

I have 30 SC discs. I don't have enough to be bothered with all this crap, but I still do not want to take any chances. And because of what they are doing, I don't want to use their stuff. You are looking at this from a vengeance stand point, Lisah. I am looking at it from a new business standpoint. Pirates haven't hurt me, or anyone that I know. I am just trying to start my business. I know I can run a better show than all my friends that are in the business. And I can say that without using Sound Choice, since I never have used it running my buddy's show. I have been told many times that my shows are better than his, maybe because I don't get trashed while I work. Who knows, maybe that has something to do with it. Sound Choice wants to stay in business, then they should put out some music, and stop treating their customers like potential criminals. I HOPE I "make" any inspector that comes to one of my shows, because I will tell him EXACTLY what I think of what he's doing. I have been in mostly mechanical type jobs, like plumbing, and maintenance. I had to buy tools to do those jobs. No tool manu came out to my jobs making sure I was using them right. Well, these CDGs are our TOOLS. Leave my tools out of the investigations.

As for illegal hard drives, maybe if SC started selling their own hard drives, full of Sound Choice music, and certified those that bought them, AND sold them at a reasonable price that newbies could afford they could knock down the illegal competition AND help the KJs. They aren't interested in helping the KJs, though they say they are. I don't believe that. If they were they wouldn't be LEASING out their music, and they wouldn't be treating everyone like criminals.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

I would never call you B*tch.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Okay. I have over 600. I also have the rights to 200 more discs (Complete GEM series) which is 6000 unduplicated songs. I like how SC treats its customers. I understand exactly what I purchased when I purchased those CD+G's. SC tracks are still just a little more than 10% of my total number of discs, but they are played 70-75% of the time. I went to computer about 7 years ago and begun to rip my CD+G collection for use on a hard drive. I had pirates come through and try to sell me a hard drive that I later saw in use at someone else's show. I decided right then, I was going to do everything I could to make sure that my HUGE collection of tracks was never under suspicion from anyone. I am fully aware of the copyright and trademark rights that are reserved when you purchase someone else's creation or intellectual property. You seem to remain willfully ignorant of the fact that you did not purchase the rights to counterfeit SC's trademark via media-shift.

You came into these forums claiming that you were just gonna pirate everything to get your business started. You are now simply not ignorant of the facts anymore.

You sit in your small part of the world and assume it is the same for everyone. I am growing tired of your whining and sniping. I don't want someone like you in the karaoke business. Someone who thinks stealing is justified. I don't give a r4tz 4$$ that you back-pedaled. We all already got a look behind the curtain. You're even backstabbing your buddy to compliment yourself. Pathetic.




Your opinion, your choice. Truth is, if you wanted to use them, you could. You'd have to follow guidelines that keep you from trademark or copyright infringement.
I don't take chances with my business either. That is why I (and many others here) have been pro-active in my relationship with SC as well as CB and Stellar.




Hung by your own logic: Pirates have hurt you. They've made it impossible for you to start your business by stealing as you planned. They damaged another's business seriously. They did so well at it that the business had to halt production of one of their main product lines an fight back. You've been told numerous times that now is actually the cheape$t time to get into this business because of new products from CB and SC.




Does your buddy know that you have such a low opinion of him and his show? He "lend" you his discs anyway? I can see you're a true friend. Would he be willing to post his opinion on all this here? Ask him.




I say this slowly.... not c r i m i n a l. If you buy a CD+G and make a hard drive copy to use in a commercial show, you are a "technical infringer". You are not authorized, nor do you have permission to use that counterfeit trademark. That is unless you simply ask for it. You have to be ready to show the physical discs for which you are requesting authorization/permission to shift those tracks from. There is nothing tricky about it. It really is quite easy. Use the CD+G's as they were purchased for play in a CD+G player, or obtain authorization for tracks shifted to a computer hard drive. The beauty of the GEM series is that it comes with the authorization built in. The reason you are being leased the rights, is that they are never actually sold to you to begin with. Everything that is copyrighted or trademarked is held with rights reserved to the owner/creator until, when or if they become public domain.



This is almost laughable. Here's your scenario. I am acertified mechanic who paid for every Snap-On and Matco tool I ever owned with the exception of some that were gifted. I'm sitting at my computer and I discover that at literally no cost to me, I can shoot out exact replicas of every single tool that I own (socket sets, torque wrenches, calipers, specialty tools and more... right out of my floppy hard drive that I never use anymore. Well, geez, my brother helped me with my training and he's read all the manuals. I gonna give him a set. He's gonna go right out and ace you out of your next job. Better still, now that I don't have to pay for tools anymore, I am gonna go to every struggling garage I can find and sell them a set of my tools cheap so they can lower their shop rate and compete better with those that worked for their success. When Snap-On comes calling, I'll just tell them I use Matco and they are just tools anyway. I'm gonna put those free copies of tools into the hands of everyone who wants to get into the business, after all, it is just the tools that make a mechanic anyway, right? I'm sure the tool manufacturers aren't gonna bother me just because it is their trademark and copyrights that I am violating. I'm pretty sure that if they sue me, nobody will ever buy their tools anymore, especially the people who already have and have been making a living with them for years. You think your TOOLS would be of interest in that investigation? Such a tool.



You know nothing of what it takes to get the licensing. However, almost a year before CB came out with their KJPro and their 6000, 12000 drives, SC produced the GEM series. 6000 unduplicated tracks for about 75 cents per track. They are already in MP3+G format and authorized for shifting and use on a computer during the production of commercial karaoke entertainment. The discs are serialized and registered. They are only available to KJ's and not the general public. To date, no one has come forward with any credible evidence that they have been pirated and/or distributed. Believe that.

You get no traction with using the word "lease" like there is something inherently wrong with that. It is a practical solution for conducting business and keeping costs down. Many businesses lease many items instead of purchasing them outright. Trust me, with 4-5 shows weekly, year round, that "lease" has already made me a profit.

I believe that someone with your attitude does more harm to our industry than good. Your fear based, emotional, ignorant statements will only create ill-will among people who have no stake in this business but are willing to steal from the table of those of us that do.

Believe it or not, despite having an entertaining host, many people want the best that karaoke has to offer and not merely a cut-rate attempt at trying to make fast money at the expense of your friends and even honest people that you'll never meet who make a living from the karaoke industry.

They (SC, CB & Stellar) treat honest, pro-active KJ's very well. It's people who steal and lie that get the dirty end of the stick. People who plan to steal and lie in order to compete and then state their plans. How should they be treated?

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Never the same show twice!

Mtn, BINGO and Amen.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Thank you!

All disc's are 'leased' according to what most of them say on the label: "All Rights Reserved, Used By Permission" "Music May be licensed for recording". Recording is the same as ripping to hard drive which they 'reserve' the right to grant. So, when we buy them, we agree to those terms.
I wish a hard drive full of cdg were less expensive too... but then I also understand that making a cdg isn't cheap. Maybe they could make another 'foundation' and put it on hard drive. Thing is, people are buying hard drives full ... I've seen some that say 150,000 songs. Yes, a lot are duplicates but then they have every brand including SC on them... and they're being sold for just a couple hundred dollars. That is what SC is all up in arms about.. and me too. IF one cdg song were $1, then those hard drives should cost $150,000. I have 17,000+ with no manu duplicates.. that's well over $34,000 since cdg is usually $2 or more per song. I do get upset over illegal KJ's. But that's because my area is small.. where there were, not too long ago, just 3-4 of us here.. now there are at least 7-8 and two of those I know are illegal. They are charging so much less than I can charge... and it's not fair business practice. The playing field is not level. I run a great show and have a great following... but the almighty buck is speaking pretty loudly here. My main gig has told me they will never use anyone else .. and I know they won't.. we've been there for 21 years (only once a week tho). But, I need more than 3 gigs per week. I've got one that is only paying $100 per night.. and is 30 miles away.. after gas and wages.. nothing left. We just can't do business like that.
I agree with the Tool analysis to a degree... problem is we never really own the music. We own the cd and the right to use the cd as is. We're not allowed to change it .. as in rip to hard drive. I think the people that are all upset over a couple of mistaken suits are being a bit touchy. Gosh, with all the songs I play every year.. wonder what the percentage of mistakes I make would be... nobody's perfect. So, if you are using a computer.. just don't put the sc on there, carry those few disc's. And if by chance you got named... all ya gotta do is show them the discs and show them that those disc's aren't on your drive. It's not that big of deal, I wouldn't think. But then, if you don't care to use SC.. so be it there too. My folks here would have a fit if I didn't have 'their' soundchoice song! But then, I personally HAVE to use SC for Heartache Tonight!!!
Like Harrington said, if you are disc based you don't have anything to worry about. Regardless of the few mistaken suits filed and dropped.
What about Chartbuster.. you're not going to use them either?
I know starting out would be difficult. I don't think there's any way around the expense if you're going to do it right. If I were you, I'd stay disc based until you're up and running and making money.

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SoundChoice Certification coming soon!

Well, as I have posted several times, in regard to disc based hosts: If the so-called "investigator" got up off of his/her fat lazy a$$, said "investigator" would be able to SEE what is going on without asking. There is absolutely no excuse for naming a disc based host. If the "investigator" can't do that, or for other reasons can't see, the "investigator" should not fabricate a report.

Did you witness an SC logo being displayed on a public screen from a non-original mfrs. source? YES OR NO?

If that question cannot be answered with a positive YES, then no suit should be filed. Yet they are.

Is there any indication or evidence that those logos displayed from a PC are attached to stolen music? YES OR NO?. If not, then while SC may find a way to coerce money, they are not "recouping" money from stolen music as the CLAIM to be doing. They are merely being as unethical as those they claim to be fighting.

Yes, I have read posts stating that "investigational" problems are being remedied. Unfortunately, I have been reading this for YEARS now, with no evidence that it is true.

Yes, Rodney was the latest, and McCleods - years ago- was the first. However, when asked, the same answer comes up: "It wasn't my case". Sorry, but " I don't no nuthin', I just work here" doesn't cut it. It reads as "I'm too stupid to oversee my employees"- and I don't believe that. They are ALL SC's cases, and they are ALL SC's responsibility. NO ONE has EVER offered any valid explaination for a disc based host being named, and it's happened over a multi-year span. Please explain it, for the sake of SC's credibility- whatever is left of it.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."