Karaoke Forums

Thanks for the reply, Jim.

I don't see much to disagree with there. The problem is in getting providers to show documented proof of their authorizations.

If they can't or won't, I don't believe it's a good idea to take their word for it.

I simply wouldn't advise downloading from a site without knowing for SURE, or at least without the documentation to cover the KJ's butt.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

most of that makes sense, but there is one part i am not wrapping my brain around.

let's take sunfly for argument's sake

i buy "Good Feeling" by "Flo-rida" from sunfly on a disk and a download
both are originals, not copies, if they paid the propper license to create that song. but if not, that same disc is original and that same download is now a copy.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Would you help me out, please?
I haven't been able to locate any law that addresses downloads that way. Is this your opinion? Has an end user purchaser of downloads been dealt with as a distributor by law before? Is there somewhere I can look to get a better understanding?

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KNOW THYSELF

This is so weird..... Normally it's me debating HL. Now, on this one point, we agree- and it's me pointing out that Earthling is now disputing a lawyer...

Is this opposites day? I'm hearing the Twilight Zone theme...

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Boo!

Welcome back, Chip!

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KNOW THYSELF

It's my opinion, but it is informed by cases like the Rasset-Thomas case in Minnesota, where the act of downloading was treated as an infringement.

i understand that Mr. Harrington, but we are talking about purchasing downloads direct from the manufacturer to the end user, not stealing them through a file sharing program and re-distributing them.

"The RIAA sent Thomas a cease-and-desist letter and settlement offer in August 2005.[7] Thomas refused to settle, and was sued on April 19, 2006 by several major record labels for copyright infringement by unauthorized downloading and sharing of 24 sound recordings on Kazaa under the username "TEREASTARR@KaZaA". The labels' complaint alleged that Thomas infringed copyright on February 21, 2005, downloading and distributing songs by such bands as Aerosmith, Green Day, and Guns N' Roses.[8][9] Rather than seeking actual damages, the plaintiffs sought relief via statutory damages, assessed in accordance with 17 USC 92 § 504(c)(2)."

these files we all agree are unauthorized copies as the manufacturer did not authorize Kazaa to give them away nor did they authorize Jammie Thomas-Rasset to re-distribute them through any means.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there wasn't any kind of purchase involved in that case. Those songs were downloaded froma file sharing network.

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My statements, opinions and conclusions are based on my own personal experiences, observations, research and/or just my own $.02. I'm not a "cheerleader", but that doesn't make me a Pirate.

The way I see it is that if you buy something from Tricerasoft, you get an electronic receipt as proof of a money transaction, AND they have their terms of service which states that these downloads are for KJs. That tells me that I am protected. WE have multiple posts right here that state that Tricerasoft can offer this service, even an e-mail from a manufacturer. Anyone want to try to come after me for being illegal, they will lose and make fools of themselves.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

By that logic, anyone can setup a server, charge for access, send an electronic receipt, and you think you would be covered by that?

-Chris

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-Chris

Thank you, I appreciate your opinion. I was hoping you'd have definitive case law regarding downloading since most of what we have here are opinions.

As for the Rasset-Thomas case, my opinion is that the distribution was the deciding factor for the jury rather than the downloading. And the wilfulness of the entire act is what brought the statory damages.

Nowhere in that case does it imply that the act of downloading only by a purchaser would render that purchaser "a participant in the act of distribution--because the purchaser directs his computer as to where to store the download". That seems a bit absurd to me considering that a space on a hard drive is not a legal entity (i.e. human being or corporation). When the distribution chain ends with the downloader, the distributor is the next one up the chain.

I do agree that the risk is minimal when purchasing downloads from a manufacturer or their authorized represntatives as long as the performance rights fees are paid, and the rights holders are being paid.

By minimal risk, I mean we are always at risk of being sued by some nut without good reason.

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KNOW THYSELF

Chris, don't you see what is going on here? SC, CB and Steller are making you mistrustful and paranoid. I am not trying to insult you, so please don't think that I am. it is the state that SC and them want you to be in, so you will only buy from them, and will bow down to them and their will. It's mostly SC, from what I have seen. I am looking for different sources for my music, as I do not want to pigeon hole myself to one source. Tricerasoft has proven that they are legit, others have used them without a problem. You have one lawyer on here that doubts them, but think why he doubts them. Think why he would give a negative opinion. He wants you to buy from his client, of course he isn't going to endorse any other outlet. Look, I need music, so I can get started. My plan is to buy the CB drive thing and unlock the songs as I need them, but I need music until I do that. I bought the SGB set, and an AH set. I want to start with more than that, so I will download from Tricerasoft, as I can. Besides, they have a lot of song I have been wanting to sing that others don't have.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

I have spoken with a few moronic KJs who want to believe the five bucks a month they pay to their file sharing club covers them for the music they pirate through that club.

What we are talking about here is a completely different situation. We have statements from at least one manufacturer (Sunfly) that says Tricerasoft is their authorized distributor. They do provide complete transaction details in their receipts that prove a good faith purchase. Combine that with making sure your venues are in good standing with the performing rights societies, and I think your coverage is equal to that of using CDs alone and better than that of using music that has been "shifted from CDs".

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KNOW THYSELF

Why not?

The last "upgrade" I purchased from MicroSoft was downloaded off their server and they took my money and sent me an electronic receipt.....

So, They set up a server....

Charged me to access my upgrade....

And after I downloaded it.....

They sent an electronic receipt....

No difference....

Amazon does that as well....

And so do hundreds of other sites...

And even SC is setting up their own....

I assure you that I do not care whether you buy from Tricerasoft or not. I was not opining on the legality of their arrangement, and I will not because I do not have all of the facts. If Tricerasoft's product meets your needs, have at it. And you of all people ought to know that I am not on here to encourage people to buy SC versus some other brand--I specifically recommended the CB drive as being a good product for people just starting out.

The simple matter is that the fact of a purchase will not absolve you of responsibility you would otherwise have. If the purchase was not authorized by the rights holders, you're potentially liable for infringement. You very well could have an action against the person who sold the material to you, if you get sued, but if they are in Toronto or London or Dusseldorf, what good does that do you?

If there is anything to doubt about Tricerasoft, it is that their representative said that they have acquired the appropriate licenses from the manufacturers, while saying nothing about the publishers insofar as I have read. It may well be that the manufacturers have the right to allow sales by download, or that Tricerasoft obtained licenses from the publishers but did not say so. It could also be that Tricerasoft has an opinion of counsel that says they don't need publisher licenses, or that the licenses they do have are sufficient for their activities. If I were a KJ hoping to buy from their company, but concerned about the material being fully licensed, I would ask for assurances that all necessary licenses--manu and publisher--have been obtained, and read the response very carefully. I would ask for the same thing from SC, CB, or any other manu or distributor of karaoke material. That's just good business sense.

I agree with this entirely, as far as it goes.

Exactly.... and that includes Australia.



Those assurances have been requested ad nauseum from these very manufacturers for years. And for years we've been told it's none of our business. Even you have defended that stance by proclaiming it to be "sensitive trade information."

When CB claimed they "purchased the catalog and registered the copyrights" on the SGB tracks, I asked for a link since I couldn't locate any such registrations.... and I was made the "bad guy" for simply asking. And they've never yet substantiated their claim.

So, you can "ask" all you like....

I find it far more effective to ask the publishers/writers/copyright holders directly.

The agreements themselves are none of your business. I said that you should ask for an assurance that appropriate licensing has been obtained.



You might find it "effective" but I doubt very seriously that you will find it to be accurate.

Why ask for an assurance? The end of most karaoke tracks already have that assurance in the form of "used by permission" encoded in the credit screen...

Are you suggesting that I should request more?



And what I've found has been quite interesting to say the least. Now, I wouldn't want to be accused of tugging on the cape of any unnamed Superman or even spitting in the wind however, I did have the opportunity over the last month to contact a few (dozen or so) publishers/rights owners of songs that have been produced in commercially available karaoke format...

Here's one response from a publisher when asked about the eight (8) songs that are currently for sale from one manufacturer alone:


I know, I know..... it's all "speculation and hearsay".... yeah, yeah, right, right.... "my dog ate my license..."