Karaoke Forums

As previously stated by both myself and Mr. Harrington- though we agree on virtually nothing else- liability is different between disc and download- I don't need the files, and a downloader does if the downloader wishes to limit liability.

Also, there is absolutely no reason for them not to include the documentation, except of course if the proper permissions were never obtained.

You choose to ignore that, which is fine. Everyone should run their business as they see fit.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

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KNOW THYSELF

This is what I was saying.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Well my whole take on this is that I have the post from Tricercerasoft, stating that they have an ammended license FROM THE PUBLISHERS stating that they are allowed to sell FOR KJ USE. *are you paying attention Joe, if this is true then sync doesn't mean squat, the rights came from the publishers themselves*

This plus the fact that the venues are reponsible for the performance fees makes me 99.99% sure that I will not be sued by a publisher.

Pretty good odds considering that most business ventures are MUCH more of a risk.

My conceince is clean, and I sleep very well at night in regards to this matter.

Now if only i could find another gig so that it was relevant to me *lol*

-James

this is my point.
also, sync really does have nothing to do with it. sync license is needed for the music videos for clubs as well (to sync the graphics to the music)......that are legally usable in venues as long as PRS fees are paid. if the sync license is paid to make the track, and the distribution license paid for is for download (like Harrington said IS available in the U.S.) then the only difference between private and public performance is the PRS fees, which the maker or seller of the track can not pay. same as with disc, if the PRS fees are not paid at a disc based show, those tracks are not legal to be played in public for commercial benefit.

or am i mistaken Mr. Harrington?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

I wasn't asking anyone to check their concience, only their liability.

1) I would not take info from those SELLING a product as gospel.

2) I am certain that downloads are "legal for KJ use"- the question is WHERE?. Certainly in the UK, for instance. Your quote did not include reference to U.S. based KJs. Even if it had, it still comes from the SELLER.

3) The SELLER, can- at least on there own- give no permissions other than that which guarantees no interference from THEM.

4) Again, if the downloads were licensed for use by U.S. based KJs in there shows, why wouldn't they download a doc for that track to protect the KJ from any liability? IMNSHO, no documentation no fact.

On the other hand, I DO agree that the chances of a publisher suing an individual KJ are minimal.

Then again, a few years ago, who would have thought a karaoke company would sue KJs who paid for their discs for media shifting a logo, which doesn't cost the mfr. a dime in damages or loss? Anything can happen....

Also again: I don't wish to tell others how to run THEIR companies. I was imparting information to be used or ignored- nothing to argue about.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Again, according to them their licenses are for worldwide distribution.

I just you and I just see things differently Joe and that's ok. I give people the benefit of the doubt until they give me reason to think otherwise.


I seriously doubt anyone with an ounce of business sense would state in a PUBLIC FORUM that they have licenses that could easily be reasearched by the publishers, if it came to that.

Just too easy to open yourself to lawsuits to give permission for things that you don't own. That's why soundchoice and chartbusters keep posting the save disclaimers, to cover their own butts.

As far as I'm concerned the letter I have and my receipts are all the proof that I need. if I ever start doing shows again and I would be willing to do the same thing if I lived in the US as well, i honestly don't see the difference.

I usually stay out of legal discussions because like I stated before, it's mostly opinions here. And you can argue opionions all day long and not getting anywhere (hint, hint... for some of you).

But let me throw a thought in here:
Since January 2011 all UK based manufacturers are not allowed to sell any of their products to the U.S. (by law). What makes their download products different/legal?

This is not precisely right. Starting in January 2011, UK-based manufacturers are not allowed to distribute their products in the U.S. without a separate licensing covering the U.S. (excepting, of course, products that entered the U.S. prior to that date). That is because the PRS for karaoke at that date began to exclude the U.S. and Canada from what was previously worldwide coverage.

There is nothing stopping UK-based manus or anyone else from obtaining licenses from the publishers that would allow downloadable products in the U.S., as long as they are willing to pay for those licenses. There is nothing inherently illegal about downloads; it's just a question of licensing.

I do not know what the state of Tricerasoft's licensing is (or any of their upstream manus), but that's between, or rather among, Tricerasoft, its customers, its manus, and the publishers.

i don't know about any others, but i do remember Sunfly stating that they are going direct to the publishers to ensure U.S. compliance so they can continue selling here.

Mr. Harrington, is there a difference between a license for home use vs. a license for public use? i am asking because i am curious if the "for home use only" is an issue of a home license only being purchased by the karaoke manufacturer, or if that is a specific restriction put on the product by the manufacturer themselves.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

It could be either one. Generally, a license for public use costs more (and may be more limited in its grant) than a license for home use.

Thanks. And I assume it is the same for discs as well as downloads. Just with discs a license is purchased for disc distribution and for downloads a license is purchased for download distribution.am I right on this one?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

How about the truth of these statements?

A license for "home use" only is generally irrelevant in public performance when the venue is covered by ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC? The exception would be of an artist that is not a member of at least one of those organizations which would be quite rare.

And the license for "public use" would mean public performance was already paid for in that license so ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC coverage would not be neccessary for that work depending on any restrictions within the license. And this type of license would be rare compared to the music most of us would be using.

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KNOW THYSELF

I'm not sure I would 100% agree with either of those statements.

For the first one, that's probably correct as far as COPYRIGHT goes. It would not include trademark rights, which are not covered by the PROs. Also, the exception is not the ARTIST, but the holder of copyright in the underlying musical work--which we usually refer to by the all-inclusive term PUBLISHER, since most of the time it's the publishers who own those rights.

For the second one, it would depend on the terms of the "public use" license. To what rights does the "public use" extend? If it's just the owner of copyright in the synchronized work (the audiovisual work--and that owner does have the right to control public performance of the A/V work), then you would still need to make sure the PROs were paid.

Well, in my absence from here I did some research on SBI, in the form of a volley of e-mails. Here is the result of that exchange:

Hi Bobby,

Thank you for your email.

We are aware that certain other companies have different policies but our
policy is clear. If you are using a download that was purchased legally from
ourselves or our legitimate agents and/or partners, we grant personal use in
the same way as it would be granted if you purchased a physical CD or DVD.
This being in Europe, United States or anywhere else in the world.

Personal use includes use professionally as a KJ or at a venue if you or the
purchaser is the venue or the proprietor of the venue.

If I can be of any further help please do not hesitate to contact me.

Kind Regards
Keith

Keith Page
SBI Global Limited
2 Norton Road, Morecambe, Lancs., LA3 1HA, United Kingdom
T: +44 (0) 203 239 8581 F: +66 (0) 38 374 702
keith@sbiglobal.com www.sbiglobal.com



From: bobby
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 6:11 AM
To: sales@sbiglobal.com
Subject: Re: [General feedback] Licensing in America

Just wondering where the reply to my question about being able to use your music for Karaoke shows here in America. Are we allowed to do that??
Bobby
From: "sales@sbiglobal.com" <sales@sbiglobal.com>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 8:20 PM
Subject: [General feedback] Licensing in America

Thanks for your enquiry. This message is to confirm that we received your message. We will reply to you at our earliest opportunity.

Best Regards,
SBI Karaoke

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Ido use SBI (and many UK manus) as well, but it's even stated in the newest UK copyright laws that US use is no longer permitted after anything from the beginning of this year I believe it was. Which falls back on the KJ and IF the club is paying their PR fees IMO.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

And do you think there are UK officials wandering around Karaoke shows trying to bust people?? REALLY??

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Those aren't the ones i'm worried about, it's the ASCAP/BMI/SESAC people that i'd be more concerned about - like I said IF the club is or isn't paying those fees.
There were some busts a few years back in this state on karaoke clubs (AND) kj's for using songs not licsenced. But the clubs also refused to pay their PR fees which was the initiation factor in the suit. Which is why I won't play a club that isn't paying these fees anymore.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I have proof from the VP of Tricerasoft. They can go after them, then for selling to an American even after being told what they would be used for, and them saying it's fine. That would be like Kurt Slep saying that it is fine to shift SC music, then the KIAA sues me for doing it. Not going to happen.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Again, no site is going to state otherwise, but if you actually read up on UK copyrights, they do state completely the opposite of what the manus tell you. At least anything released after Jan of this year. Before that, yes it WAS worldwide~! Which is why it would be in the best interest to all to play those tracks in a club that actually PAYS their PR fees.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!