Karaoke Forums

This is known as "poisoning the well"....

The "well" in this case are all the KJ's from years ago that spent their hard-earned money on SC discs one-by-one as they could afford them... from as much as $36+ to get a few songs they needed and a bunch they didn't.

Even through the times when SC ran their "voluntary pricing agreement" with distributors. (either you "volunteered" to uphold minimum pricing or you lost the distributorship.)

These KJ's are the customers that made it possible for SC to afford their 20,000 sq. ft. space and as they claim in their suits, "spend 18,000,000.00 on creating product."

The very same that are now purposely being "left out"....

Yes, it appears to be an intentional poisoning as far as I'm concerned.

FUD Alert....

Pricing arrangements, how big an office is and how much was spent to create the music has absolutely nothing to do with whether ODB hosts have an equal standing as being certified or not.

Also...

1) A well is a community resource and as such, poisoning it would impact ALL that drink from it.
2) "The Well" in this case is actually is the entire collection of owners and venues that all of the KJ's drink from.

Harrington has stated they are working on a program to enable ODB hosts to be certified just the same as 1:1 media shifters. It also seems like a program that is destined to die right out of the gate. I suspect the number of ODB hosts is NOT growing compared to media-shifters. It will be a program that very few will sign up for and every month will see fewer and fewer qualified candidates as ODB hosts quit or convert. I am NOT suggesting the program should not be implemented, but I can certainly see why there hasn't been a program yet put in place when there are such a small number of ODB hosts and fewer over time.

Considering how few certified hosts of any kind exist now and are likely to exist 1, 2, 5 years from now, there really is no problem here. Also, how many ODB hosts have lost a gig to a certified host to date? I am guessing the number is exactly ZERO.

The greater threat to ODB hosts is NOT the certified host. It is the thief.

I find it particularly interesting that this conversation is turning toward ODB hosts being concerned that certified shifters have a potential to land gigs over an ODB host when a) It has probably never happened and the odds are very low it ever will, and 2) The focus should still be squarely on preventing the thieves from landing gigs over ANY legal host.


-Chris

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-Chris

I'll say!


Is this nomenclature now "thief" instead of "pirate" really any different than "illegal host?"



That is of course, unless you're simply "helping illegal hosts become legal" then it appears to be perfectly okay in your book to help them (the same ones you call "thieves and pirates") maintain their gigs over "ANY legal host."

F.U.D. is right.... It's the source that is confusing.

Chris, you need to make up your mind.... on one day you claim that "thieves and pirates" are the scourge of the planet... then on the next, it's perfectly okay for you to help them.... as though they are lost souls and yet again, your refusal to answer what your actions would be if the very KJ whose job you are now working was determined to be "legal" does nothing but mystify your motivations as well as your integrity.

You might not like my opinions, but at the very least they are consistent.

The whiplash in your very own ethics is dizzying. You will apparently step over to any side that will allow you to self-righteously hold a megaphone... and you want to be first to point and exclaim loudly "FUD alert?"

You condemn others for personal attacks, yet you devoted an entire thread to nothing but a crusade of a personal attack? (fortunately, it was deleted here.)

Your merry-go-round is somewhat amusing... unfortunately it's become difficult to take any of it seriously or even understand what it is at the current time.

Look in a mirror.... or at the least try to be consistent.

Carry on....

Well Chip, the one thing I can say for you is that you do have a consistant, abnormal, hate on for Sound Choice.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Thief, Pirate, Illegal Host - All the same thing. I simply chose to NOT take the edge off with "pirate" or "illegal host" in this case.

Your claim that I am inconsistent, un-ethical and the questioning of my integrity is indeed, more FUD. I don't feel bad or guilty about having helped TWO people that ASKED ME for assistance. You are the ONLY person that has expressed any issue with me having done so.

Just like thieves, I am not a big fan of methamphetamines and devestation left in the wake of the people that use it. Years ago, I helped a few people get away from that nasty drug. But if I were to follow your lead and ignore them (as you have admitted to doing with the thieves, pirates, illegal hosts around you) I should have sent them on their way and allowed them to continue their downward spiral wreaking havoc on the lives of friends and family around them. Perhaps even to die. I like my path better.

I don't spend my days running around town looking for meth addicts to help any more than I run around trying to turn a profit by advertising a service to thieves, pirates and illegal hosts. If someone approaches me, I will at least listen to what they have to say.

Fighting piracy, whether it be converting a thief to a legal host, or by pushing them out of the industry completely, is a good thing. I do not understand why you are you so against this.

As for my stance on personal attacks, I made myself clear here -
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=23513

-Chris

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-Chris

Chris, it is your thread about getting a job due to being on the certified list that raised concern among disc hosts--and possibly some computer hosts as well. You saw it as an advantage. Can you be sure for certainty that there were no disc hosts in your area who would have pursued the job if they were aware there was an opening? Did your venue owner check around the area for legit hosts before consulting the list? If it worked to your advantage then it can't be discounted as being an advantage.

The certified lists are on websites with national exposure and venue owners are being directed toward it as they are made aware of the lawsuits. A disc host deserves the same opportunity to be on it that you had.

While I agree that disc will not be supported in the future, we remained disc not out of fear of technology or backwardness but because my boyfriend researched it and felt that copying to a computer was not legal. We decided to stay disc until it all got hashed out. We will eventually convert but that will take time.

While we understand that the need for disc certification may not have been recognized at first, it was your thread that pointed out a possible inequity. And while disc hosts may be a small and shrinking percentage, the number of legit hosts of any kind vs. the number of pirates is also supposedly a small percentage. That disc hosts are an even smaller part of that is not as important as the fact that we are the most "legal" part. I am happy that Sound Choice is developing a program so that we can have the same advantage to promote ourselves as is available to a computer host.

FUD & Deflection alert!



Not even relevant and one of the most ridiculous arguments I've heard in a long time...

The meth addicts weren't stealing your job were they? Were they stealing meth from your supplier, just as you would equate a karaoke pirate is stealing from your karaoke music supplier?

Your justification is nothing more than deflectional and diversionary FUD....



And so you simply insert your own straw man tactic by telling me what I'm against?

Your obviously confused so I can only do what I can to make it clearer to you:

I do NOT lift a finger to "help" a pirate, thief or "illegal host" even if they "ask for help" nicely and have money. Not once or even twice.

And converting a thief to "legal" doesn't help my business --or any other established KJ in this industry-- by one red cent, it simply further dilutes the market by allowing them to operate with an economic advantage.

You switch gears so often, you obviously hope people will forget....

Now, getting back to the original topic:

My point has always been that HarringtonLaw knew exactly what Joe wanted in a letter and purposely avoided it. If you want to agree with Cue that Joe was basically outsmarted by an attorney then the integrity and real motives need further inspection...

I understand what you are saying. I don't wish to convey that ODB hosts deserve certification any more or less than anyone else. Being listed on the site is an advantage. ODB hosts should be there as well. Just a matter of SC and CB getting there programs running.

I just believe that competition between certified shifters and ODB hosts is hardly going to be common place anytime soon. My thread was about 1 instance of 1 venue calling 1 certified listed host resulting in 1 gig. There are thousands of pirates consuming many thousands more gigs out there.

-Chris

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-Chris

The distinction here being that I wasn't making an argument or a justification, I was using an analogy. And meth addicts will steal from their own suppliers.





That is your choice to not help pirates even if they were to ask for it. But you aren't turning them in either. You are allowing the thieves to thrive, prosper and multiply while they consume more and more jobs that would otherwise be capable of being filled by legal hosts. On the other hand, I helped two folks clean up their libraries and start buying discs from the manufacturers as well as other reputable sources. My assitance generated sales (albeit it very small sales) for the industry while your inaction does exactly the opposite.



You saying I have been inconsistent doesn't make it so. It is all here in black and white. I am not afraid of what I have typed here and expect people to fact check.



An assumption on your part and a direct contradiction to what Harrington has said.

HarringtonLaw - "It was not my intention to "outsmart" you--that would be a tall order--nor to provide you with anything less than what I said we would provide."

-Chris

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-Chris

Which is exactly my point (thank you) that HarringtonLaw knew exactly what Joe wanted in a letter and purposely avoided it. Now, he stands on his "technicality" of not providing him with "anything less than what I said we would provide." When he knew full-well what Joe was asking for in the first place was not what he offered. Clever wording and nothing more than evasive (again).

It appears as though it was smoke, mirrors and the old nutshell game.

CHip has my feelings on this subject quite well. Intentional or not, SC doesn't seem to be willing to do something as simple as drafting a general letter stating that ODB are exempt from SC's current actions that could be sent to anyone- again, because only a genuine ODB host could show it or distribute it to venues. It would be of no help to a PC host or pirate, so no need to "certify" thehose in receipt.

This action would actually be better for SC ( public relations and exposure) than it would for the ODB host. Remember, being ODB means the host is covered anyway- with or without the letter. A little thought and a little common sense go a long way.

Maybe SC is holding out until they can figure a way to get a fee for it...?

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

They already have: it's called an "audit." The rules are quite simple: If you want to be "recommended" by them as a "certified KJ" to the venues they're scaring with lawsuits, you have to purchase an audit. Period.

Doesn't matter if you own their discs, use them on a computer or not. The "certified" label isn't free.... not even for you.

Pay up.

They said ODB kj's will be audited for free.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

As Lonman noted, SC is at least putting together a program for ODB hosts. You make no mention of Chartbusters and they require audits *or* the purchase of a much more expensive package to be listed as certified on their site. The only way to get listed is to pay up. They also do not certify ODB hosts.

Why aren't you busting their proverbial chops? We know the answer - you don't have a personal vendetta against them so they are off the radar.

-Chris

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-Chris

Just to name a few items.... Is Chartbuster sending out letters to Venues (similar to that of SC)? Are they implying that unless the KJ is Certified, then they are operating illegally. Are they stating that unless the KJ is Certified and listed on their website, that there is a possibility the Venue will be sued? Are they totally ignoring the ODB KJ while doing the above mentioned?

So, what do you know about CB's actions vs SC's actions? Not a whole lot!!! THAT is why you don't hear anyone busting their chops.

BTW.. I don't think CB is going to certify me with only 13 discs of theirs in my whole collection. And, I sure as heck am not going to pay $200 for their Audit (not with that few in my library).

When you say "We know the answer" are you speaking for the rest of the planet in general as though you are their self-appointed leader?

This is the disadvantage you have because you are somewhat of a newbie... you have no idea (as in "none") what history has proceeded between me and CB. You have no idea whether or not I've had any interaction with any of the staff there for any reason whatsoever. You're simply attempting to bait and falsely accuse for an argument of one sort or another and using inflammatory remarks (such as "vendetta against them") to stir the pot.

As timberlea would say: "Nice try."

So the issue is not the listing on the web site, but the letters being sent to the venues. There is a substantial difference.

-Chris

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-Chris

Did you miss the rest of what I wrote? It's not just the letters. It's everything combined.


I should add to the above... With a library of over 12K songs, I really have no need to purchase CB's Hard drive either.



I'm sure that once things become more public with how CB is handling things against "Piracy" and theft (NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH an "Illegal KJ" (because there is a difference) who happens to be operating 1:1), you will hear people saying things. In their pursuits, SC has made a lot of mistakes (which the people of this Forum have been very vocal about). Maybe CB will do things differently from SC.


And, not for nothing but, while there is nothing in place (yet), SC MIGHT be working on setting up some type of program for someone like me (an ODB KJ) to put me on an even footing with someone like you (who is 1:1 and Certified, and listed on their website). Your poo-pooing of the idea is not appreciated. Based on what you wrote, since there aren't that many of us ODB KJs around it doesn't sound like it would cost a whole lot for SC to set up and maintain that program. After all, as you put it, the numbers will grow less and less, as each ODB KJ decides to convert to a 1:1 setup.

Now, now. I am avoiding being snarky. You could at least attempt the same.

"We" know the answer because "We" have seen you post the same thing over and over.



I am not baiting. I am basing this off of what I have observed in the past 4 months of reading your incessant ramblings against Sound Choice and ONLY Sound Choice.

You claim Sound Choice to be anti-industry, that they take our rights away, and on and on, yet every single person that has certified with them and posts here has had a positive outcome and several have even benefited from the experience, myself included.

Your anti-Sound Choice sentiment *IS* a personal issue bolstered only with hypothetical, fringe case scenarios and your own twist on the interpretation of legal documents that you aren't qualified to interpret for yourself much less the masses. You track record from public legal records demonstrate that taking legal advise from you is not a very wise decision.

What is relevant to this immediate discussion though (and what you are trying not to address) is that both companies have a certification program. Both require audits or the purchase of a product from them to get listed as a certified host on their page. Neither of them certify ODB hosts. But you are only focused on giving Sound Choice a beating about their program. I find this odd since they are actually the most engaged with the community and have stated in public that they are working on changing things for ODB hosts. They are making an effort where the others have not stated anything in public to address the issue.

You have been solely focused on Sound Choice for the duration that I have been here which is all the history of you that I really need. But I have read enough older stuff to establish the pattern.

You do have a personal vendetta against Sound Choice and that is obvious. To claim otherwise is laughable.

-Chris

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-Chris

Cue - Contrary to what you may think, I have done a lot of research on this. I was researching this well before I ever joined these forums. I have been watching the landscape of the Sound Choice actions since 2009. I was in talks with Stellar and their CAP program in July of 2010. I was inquiring with SC, SC, and PHM about how I could license their entire libraries in 2010 as well.

I am new to the KS forums. I am not new to karaoke. I know a lot of hosts across the country and I have watched what they have gone through over the years. I am not all knowing by any means, but I know more than some would give me credit for.

The issue I have with those that continually beat up on Sound Choice (and those that support Sound Choice) is that they beat them up without offering any solutions. They are beating to beat. They are not attempting to make things better. In my career I have learned that you can complain all you want about something but unless you bring a solution to the table, you are unlikely to be given much consideration.

The current state of anti-Sound Choice people throwing tantrums like children in a grocery store being denied a candy-bar is wearing very, very thin.

-Chris

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-Chris