Karaoke Forums

It is very long so I felt it more appropriate to post as a blog entry.

http://afairrotation.wordpress.com/2012 ... n-seattle/

Feel free to extract out of it pieces you wish to comment on and post here to this thread.

-Chris

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-Chris

What was Kurt's response to your Tough Comment and Suggestions?

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My statements, opinions and conclusions are based on my own personal experiences, observations, research and/or just my own $.02. I'm not a "cheerleader", but that doesn't make me a Pirate.

While I appreciate your nobility, I think it is very strongly demonstrated that Soundchoice doesn't particularly care about helping legal KJs or putting illegal KJs out of business.

This entire initiative is about civil action to recover lost revenue as allowed by trademark law.

The goal is not, and never will be, to stop piracy or somehow clean up the karaoke music and KJ market, that's counter productive to their operational goals!

Their goal is to collect as many golden eggs as possible, not kill the golden goose!

The unspoken fact here is that MORE piracy is in SC/CB/et. al's best interest!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

since you have offered and allowed, I will take you up on it.



first of all, removing sound choice – and removing chart busters from your library – is not going to put any KJ out of business. Patrons go to the clubs to sing and if they are so concerned about the brand that they sing from, they will purchase their own and bring it with them if that is necessary. Otherwise, the rest of the patrons are there to sing and have fun with their friends – they really don't care about brand of song.

Interesting how chartbuster is now aggressively suing for trademark on what turned out to be the end of the chartbuster business – because of piracy they created. Interesting how the new entity will now sue Pirates for pirating material that was originally pirated by chartbusters. The resulting lawsuit from CAVS, and their refusal to even acknowledge or answer it, is considered an admission of the allegations contained within the suit by the court: breach of contract, misrepresenting unlicensed songs as if they were licensed (fraud).

And of course the new entity is out to "fight piracy" by suing for trademark infringement on a bunch of pirated tracks they didn't even create in the first place – what a double standard and the sign of a true trolling operation.



I disagree. Your scenario above requires that every KJ on the planet – including those who have purchased discs from day one – be forced to submit to a yearly fee in order to check their legitimacy. I know that you believe that certification and other industries is perfectly acceptable, however those industries normally are government agencies that require a certification – whether it's for sanitation, food safety, health or anything else. The fact of the matter is this is simply singing songs in bars at night and sound choice or any other vendor are simply vendors.

Every manufacturer in the early part of this decade had the opportunity to change the format of their music to make it more difficult to be pirated. They all refused. Because they were unable to agree on a suitable format more than a decade ago, they are partially responsible for the situation of the industry today.

Most of these manufacturers were so busy competing with each other in the retail market, that none of them wanted to protect the products that they were currently selling. There were only about thirty manufacturers at that time, and it was impossible to get them all to agree on any single issue. Sound choice attempted a cloaking solution that simply ended up cloaking their music from the very players designed to play them. It was however, quickly dropped in favor of more sales over security.

American manufacturers were not about to stop supplying the karaoke market in favor of security because offshore manufacturers such as Sunfly, legends, and others continue to sell in the United States taking more and more of their market share.

As it was explained to me in the 90s from one manufacturer, "KJ's purchase more disks at one time – however the retail market sells more disks over all." So it doesn't matter if it KJ spends twenty thousand dollars on a single library, the manufacturers were making more money by selling through Kmart, Walmart, and other retail outlets. KJ's were the smallest part of their market.

Now, with the advent of widespread sharing on the Internet, manufacturers are finding that the only market they can readily identify are the KJ's that work in clubs. So they have become the new target.

Your suggestion that sound choice stop giving access to their music to Pirates – or at least stop financing the Pirates – is not going to go very far. My feeling is that your suggestion will do nothing but hamper sales, their objective is to make more sales not fewer sales. They are also using competing KJ's to work as "Scouts" and investigators to feed them more leads either for litigation as an "unauthorized media shifter" or as a pirate. Either way, these are sales leads and the incentive for the KJ who is doing the snitching is the promise of being able to take over gigs from the pirates they put out of business. The truth is, sound choice doesn't want to put anyone out of business, they want to rent them the gem system.

No matter what Harringtonlaw states, sound choice is obviously unwilling to indemnify or guarantee any disk-based karaoke host that they are 100% safe from any legal action – because of the "human element" involved in their investigation process. The suggestions of posting signs, announcing before playing any disk, waving a disk in the air or any other modification of the way I run my business is ludicrous. What's worse would be the anticipated actions of piracy recovery: who has no idea if I am playing any tracks from the former chartbuster off of an SD card or hard drive from any purchase they may not be aware of. (that is of course, if I play any of that brand at all)

This is simply unacceptable. My feeling is that if I am at a legal risk for using your product, then you should at the minimum purchase your product back at the retail price that I paid for it and rescind the sale. Sound choice is unwilling to do that either.

My feeling is that more areas of the country will see more and more of Kurt. His actions appear to be more on the side of photo ops in conjunction with damage control – especially with them letting the large casinos off the hook – without so much as a response to the court. by the way, this could not have been an oversight in my opinion. Lawyers in litigation are fully aware of deadlines, responses, motions, when they need to be filed and when it is too late to do anything about it. I even questioned Harrington about their apparent failure to respond and his reply was that I obviously didn't know what I was talking about and that the attorneys had everything "well in hand." yeah right.

Although Harrington has alluded that the company is now in a "healthy [financial] condition" compared to its condition two years ago, it is still apparently not healthy enough to even produce new music. Kurt's noncommittal response reflects more of a desire to continue with the litigation business model, then it is to return to making music.

More and more KJ's around the country are dropping the brand and finding that there is no consequence to doing so. They will find the same will be true with chartbusters as well – and even digitrax if they start suing on their own trademark. the quote below is from a Midwest karaoke site:



There will always be perfectly acceptable options available offshore.

How is that going to help, if the KJ pulls those brands that a customer specifically wants to sing from? You say they can just buy their own and bring it, but what if it is the same tracks the kj pulled - like yourself you wouldn't allow someone to sing from a SC disc they brought? Only solution for those singers is to find another show that WILL allow them to sing from their tracks - or the kj has those tracks.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Thanks for the catch, I inadvertently posted a draft that did not yet have Kurt's responses. I have updated the post with Blue for the edits.

-Chris

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-Chris

Those singers that want to sing specifically by brand – are the vast minority of singers – if you are promoting a brand by suggesting that brand to singers when they ask, you are making them dependent on that brand and you are creating your own monster.

If your singers are there to have fun and party with their friends, the brand of song becomes less and less important. Creating a fun environment for the singers not only helps your business, but increases your job security with the venue.

I have dropped the sound choice brand for quite some time now, and my business has not been affected by one dime. I am however, out the initial expense for the sound choice discs, But I am never the "bad guy" when it comes to refusing to play their brand. They have become their own bad guy I don't have to do it for them. I have yet to have a single patron disagree with me.

Protecting myself AND the venue from any unnecessary legal action is far more important to job security than someone whining about not having their brand of song to sing. There are too many other patrons in the club to take care of.

My feeling has always been that if you are dependent on any brand, then you must not have much entertainment value to offer your patrons – you might as well be an organ grinder whose only talent is to turn the crank (or run the equipment as it were).

So Kurt basically said


Wouldn't hold my breath on this. Actually I'll bet the number of available songs increase if they ever start producing again.

and



So it's business as usual with the new business model, and who cares about the not-so-valued legit customer. I wouldn't expect SC to help secure me a gig, but I wouldn't think they would be so concerned with helping a pirate keep theirs either (i.e. finance the GEM).

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My statements, opinions and conclusions are based on my own personal experiences, observations, research and/or just my own $.02. I'm not a "cheerleader", but that doesn't make me a Pirate.

If you are completely paid for and not dependent on renting their gems series, then I don't believe they have any use for you: you are a dead income stream.

If you are renting the gems series, then you are "on the hook" no matter how small your payment becomes, at least they are continuous – these are the customers sound choice would be happy to help secure a gig – those that continue to pay them over time.

Intentionally calling the GEM set a "rental" implies that one is paying a monthly fee forever, like a car or apartment and if one stops, you are evicted. This is simply not the case.

I license the GEM set (there is a difference). Contractually, my next licensing payment will be in about 2.5 years and it will be $33 a year thereafter, if they charge me at all. (20 minutes work at my rate). It is known as a Peppercorn clause (see the Wiki) and generally the fees are waived.

I seriously doubt I am "on the books" anywhere in their ledgers and doubt even more that Kurt Slep is looking to retire in the Bahamas on this steady $33 a year income.

While I don't think one has to be dependent on any particular brand, many folks request versions they are used to. I feel it is my job to meet that request if possible.
I also believe the "fun" factor is increased if the person singing is familiar with the song being played. We all know manus have different versions, tempo, lyrics, etc to the same song and it becomes quite apparent when a singer falls off on a song because "it doesnt sound like the one they usually sing".

My "regualrs" usually bring in lots of people to party and have a good time at my shows and are the ones that "request" a particular version. To keep them coming back and not going to other shows I try to make sure I have the manu they want.
It's not always SC or CB, but when it is, they know that I have it and ALWAYS WILL.

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Sound Choice and Chartbuster Certified

In your area it's a minority, I get people asking nightly if I have the SC version (or any other specific brand) can they get that one. I have had singers turn down songs because I didn't have a specific version, in this area singers DO know the difference. I have many that DO bring in their own discs because they are used to particular versions. Nothing wrong with that. I even have some singers request versions that are NOT SC, if I have it, I will accomodate them.

Singing from a version you like and are used to should be included in the 'fun'. Sometimes it's very UNfun singing from a version that turns out to be crappy in ones opinion.

I would lose quite a few customers if I did that, not worth it IMO.

I have went over everything with the venue owner and mangers, they know what the risks are, know I am at least certified with SC now, KNOW for fact I have all my discs. They are not worried in the slightest.

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Then I guess I must suck as a host. I'm not going to drop any brand because I don't like their policies.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Chip, are you really telling me that you are going to pull all of your Chartbuster music and run without SC or CB and it won't impact your business at all?





Forget certification for a moment.....

Let's look at the predicament over all.

15 years ago, Karaoke hosts could command $300+ per night for a Karaoke show. Why? There were relatively few hosts, it was a unique feature to offer at a bar that drew in paying customers.

Now, the going rate is considerably less. Why? Because there are such a large number of venues offering karaoke and the competition is very high. Doesn't matter if the other hosts are pirates or not, the market is saturated.

Why is the market so saturated? Because so many karaoke hosts bought a bunch of karaoke music and started undercutting each other? No. Because pirates stole the music and were able to enter the market at a fraction of the overhead.

I think that is an accurate assessment albeit very brief assessment of what happened without delving into a bunch of details that don't move the needle too much.

Now, I know you say that no pirate is capable of taking your shows from you and you don't feel threatened by pirates at all, but you can't tell me that it doesn't burn you up a little that for 15 years you paid for music across a large number of systems while you watched a bunch of pirates establish themselves around you at a fraction of the cost. They may have come and gone, but while they were there, they made a lot of money on a substantially smaller investment than you or any other legal host made.

I just don't think the right pirate has tried to take your gig from you yet. It is quite possible that one day a pirate with the right personality, charisma and charm, with the right price will come in and you get your walking papers. I don't wish for this, I just think you feel you are untouchable when in fact you are only human.



Brace yourself.....I agree. I only offered a suggestion. What they do with it is another matter. I personally don't think SC or PR will simply cut off the pirates and truly try to put them out of business. They do and will gain revenue from the suits and money talks.



I don't completely agree or disagree with this assessment. I have no issue with reporting pirates or even being dubbed as a "Scout", but I have never believed it would directly result in me picking up a vacated gig simply because I don't see them being vacated. As excited as I was to get the call for my current gig, it is very much the excpetion and not the rule. Had things gone the way Sound Choice wanted them, the former KJ would have settled, picked up a GEM and stayed at the venue. I would never received a call because there would have been no reason to look me up on the Sound Choice site.

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Right now there are. But how long will it last? How profitable can they really be? Piracy isn't exaclt decreasing so when will they start to feel the pinch and no longer be able to produce music and recoup their losses.

-Chris

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-Chris

Sorry, I meant "on the hook" and not on the books.

The gem series is a rental, your rental fee will reduce in 2 1/2 years. You don't own it, you never will.

And while it is true that your next licensing payment will be in 2 1/2 years, your initial expense was how many thousands? There is also no guarantee that your licensing payment into a half years will remain small. Although it appears as though your licensing payment will not increase, please read your contract. It specifically states that terms and conditions can change at any time.

"While it was acknowledged by all in attendance that it would be nice to see more singers and venues involved in reporting piracy, it is the KJ’s that are the most informed and the most qualified to identify and report pirates. "\

the singers are the biggest pirates.for every one host legal or pirate, there are at least a dozen singers with 100,000+ hard drives at home. some hosts stopped buying music, but most singers stopped, that is where the business went. i have kept track and this month so far i have had 5 different singers cone up for a song i didnt have and when i hit tricerasoft they offered to bring me a copy form home or if i like, they will just bring their whole drive and let me copy it. not another KJ, SINGERS.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Which is found in just about every lease/licence/rental/ and other certain contracts.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

What makes you think I have chartbuster music to begin with? or is this just an assumption of yours?

But to answer your question, I will stand by my statement that it is quite possible to drop any brand (or pair of brands) and they will not impact my business. Have I been damaged by being forced to drop the sound choice brand? Absolutely. The damages in the thousands of dollars of discs that I cannot use without creating a legal risk to myself or to my customers.



It might have been three hundred dollars a night where you live, but it wasn't here. Fifteen years ago the going rate was one hundred fifty dollars here and it has remained that way ever since. The only time that a karaoke jockey was offered $250-$300 a night was back in 1988 to 1990 which was just before the advent of the 5 inch karaoke CDG.



I believe that the market is saturated because it is so easy to acquire karaoke music. You are a perfect example of that you have managed to acquire a very large library, in a very short amount of time, at a very small expense compared to what I have paid. I don't know how far away you are from Lonnie – but it can't be too far – and my understanding is that rates in your area don't exceed $100 per night. Whether you paid a lot for your music, or you paid very little, it's still not very much money for your investment and work.

in my area of the country, a karaoke host worth their salt can earn almost double what you receive in your area. The only time there was a $250-$300 night, was one there were very few karaoke places available. The objective of sound choice now is to certify and sell the gems series to as many different customers as possible, they are not out to reduce the supply they are out to sell product. Don't expect your rates to go up anytime soon simply because you are certified, because there will be more and more "certified" that you will have to compete with and cutthroat pricing will continue.



Which would you prefer: to make more money per job than any in the flock of pirates around you and mind your own business, or get into a price war with pirates?


I'm certainly not Superman, but in the same breath why would you want to fix something that is not broken? If I am making consistently good money for the venue, what is their incentive to replace me? A complaint that a singer would like to sing the sound choice brand? I don't think so.


I hope this doesn't mean that I have to buy both you and Bazza a beer?


If you want to feel true success, wait until you start karaoke in a venue that has never had it, and then grow the patrons to the point of being profitable. with absolutely no outside influences.



So how profitable is Clark music selling sound choice out of Australia? your logic above would dictate that sound choice would stop selling that immediately and focus only on their gems sales to certified Karaoke hosts. But obviously that has not happened either.

That is heavily dependent on the geography where you do karaoke.

I have had exactly one person in the last two months ask if I could play discs or music they brought in.

I have had exactly ZERO people offer to bring me a drive, or disc, or USB or anything else to copy over into my system in 22 months of hosting.

Other hosts I talk to in this area offer the same feedback. I know it happens because I have seen it happen, it just doesn't happen in this area as much as it does in others.

-Chris

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-Chris

I am not on the hook (or the books) for anything.


No. I license the GEM set, I do not rent them.


Yet, I can use them for the rest of my life without additional cost and I am confident they will never leave my hands. Six of one, half dozen of another.



My initial expense was less than half the cost of "buying" an identical SC base set of obsolete, hard discs. Like you did.

How much did you spend on five sets of SC discs that are collecting dust in your garage?



Of course there is. It is in the agreement. My worst case scenario is $33 a year...forever. I do not believe I will ever see a bill, and if I do? $33. "Big Whoop" as my 12 year old says.



You are confusing terms & your armchair lawyer skills are lacking. Please consult a professional. Besides, Mr. Harrington has debunked this fear-mongering tactic previously on this very forum. Perhaps I should "Pull a Staley" and take lots of screen shots as "Insurance" as I believe you said? <-It's a joke!

It would seem that KJs typically are not well informed at all. Considering that the area has so many karaoke venues, it's pathetic that only a dozen people would show up for a meeting so directly related to the happenings in their industry on a local level.

I'm pretty sure, with only one day's notice, I could announce a meeting on the ramifications of trimming ear hair without proper licensing and still pull attendence of twenty or more.

I think it proves that the issues behind the music are unimportant to the typical KJ, venue, or singer and that there are very, very few KJs that take the profession seriously.

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KNOW THYSELF