Karaoke Forums

If you are as old as me (I am 46) then consider what I am saying as trying to help you along in the world of 2012 and the future. How much of what you have downloaded from iTunes have you burned to disc? And what are you playing those discs in? Or are they just archived copies in case the Internet goes down? And that copy to the iPod was made accessible because of the purchase you made via the cloud and iTunes. You have Netflix? You are arguing against something you are already doing.

Go ask the 20-30 yr olds how many CD's they have, how many DVD's and Blu-Ray discs they have. Most won't have any. My 16 yr old has exactly ZERO CD's. My 13 yr old.....Zero. My 24 yr old sold what she had to a 1/2 price book store years ago and picked up a Zune subscription and replaced it all instantly and gained access to millions more in the same process.

You can argue against it all you want, but are in the minority already. The days of burning to disc and then writing on them with a Sharpie are over.

But while we are at it, I have an Atari 2600, an 8-track player, a Sony Walkman, and a rotary telephone for sale....

-Chris

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-Chris

Oh....and that iTunes you aren't streaming, you still picked up from the cloud and stored a local copy of.....just like what DigiTrax is offering.

-Chris

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-Chris

Chris,
...I think some may struggle with it (regardless if they FEEL the own the music or not, which they don't) because they can legally resale their legal karaoke cdg or music cd (the plastic). Whereas, streaming or cloud or even legally purchased downloadable karaoke or dj/filler music isn't legal to resale,...yet? I know one company was doing it for the Cloud Customers with I-Tunes (a trade-in or credit if the individual wanted to get rid of his/her music track/s) but a lawsuit was filed against this company and is being played out in the courts as we speak. But you are definitely renting it, such as satellite or cable tv.

...I can't speak for Smooth or others but I do understand the fact that if you wanted to sale your music collection and have the original discs, you would feel like you have the legal rights to resale without breaking any laws and perhaps recover some of your initial investment. The potential buyers might be a limited pool of people in today's market place but the mind set is at least you could get something back. I think it's fairly obvious that the price of karaoke and music discs are very low and will continue to fall until there's no inventory left except for used discs because of digital downloads and cloud subscriptions. Plus, I'm guessing that the manufacturers are hoping the discs will be pushed out and only subscriptions (clouds or some type of digital downloads) will be the new media and they'll be able to SEE (check on your cloud) what you have... "The Transparency Factor."

...Just this past week I decided to add to my dj/filler music and purchased right at 800 music discs (roughly 15% Brand New and 85% Used in Good to Like New Condition) for $520.00. Am in the process of ripping them (a lot faster than ripping Karaoke Discs) but I will still have the original discs to resale, if I choose to pull them from my system or get out completely. This should push my DJ/Filler music to just over 25,000 legal tracks. Might not be the best deal but I'm happy with it because I now have an even deeper variety of music in most genres for any event. A decent amount of everything plus some very good popular artist and other dance music. Even if I do decide to sale them, I will probably have to take less than what I paid because of technology.

...Currently I don't have a weekly gig. I was just about to hit the Promo Trail while at the tail end of revamping my DJ/KJ system (re-ripping and reorganizing all of my music and equipment). Had some other work pop up but I can be ready on the fly at anytime. However, just not as organized with everything as I would like to be for future events. Last several months just been doing private parties here and there.

....Guess the point I was trying to make, is I (and perhaps others that already have legal music libraries in cdg & cd media form) can still resale them by legal means in the hopes of recouping some of our investment. Sure, if some form of cloud comes out and I see it as a worth wild investment cost, I will join and can just write it off but I will have to be in it full time unless they offer a different price scale/subscription cost. I agree, it's just a slow death for plastic and it is coming to an end, especially for new music unless the Manufacturers offer some type of custom cdg with serial number and a data base for tracking those discs sales for the ODB operators or those that just want discs.

...Laws may change. Personally, I do care and am completely against piracy, as I always have been. A KJ/DJ can set their business model up anyway they choose to. As for me I offer a DJ or KJ Service or a combo of both along with a variety of lights and fog machines. If a customer chooses a Karaoke & DJ Combo Package, most of the time (85%-90%) is spent playing Karaoke Music. Bottom line, I don't care what a DJ/KJ has as long as he/she is legal be it cloud, digital downloads, discs, etc. (their legal music was purchased or was given to them for free), just have a legal library!...Yep, the impossible dream! But it would be nice to even out the playing field! Pricing for a gig? I don't know if we'll be able to charge much more than the current rate that's in each market place? Guess ya just do the best you can by packing them in and promoting the establishment!

...Now please pardon me as I go rip some more...

the offline storage, does that mean it could be downloaded on the spot instead of streamed? kinda like a monthly subscription to Tricerasoft?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

So how much can you download at any given point? How long can you store? It seems to me you'll have to be on the ball to keep redownloading since it seems you can only keep then on harddrive for so long before they disappear.

Smooth, you are not buying, you are renting/leasing. You never own what you rent/lease. Some things you may be able to buy out at a significant price or you return it. It's far from a new concept. The choice is yours.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Timberlea,

The downloads will "time out" each month unless you log on to the cloud. From what they were saying as long as you login (I am assuming on/or before your billing date)The date will be set to expire when your subscription expires.

You are correct there will be no residual/resale value from using the ProCloud, however it may have value for some people as it does allow for a large number of songs to be available "on demand"

Athena

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

here's a question: are you gonna have to re-download the same song everytime you want to do offline storage? how is that addressed so i don't have to waste bandwidth.....

my isp cableone offers 50 or 100Mb cap
i know comcast is at 250Mb cap
others have cap limitation your just not made aware of them....

if i have to download the same songs over and over to use them offline and they expire then no it's not worth it.

everyone out there should check with their internet provider to see what their cap is.. because then you start paying additional fees for every Gig your over the cap.
that's just not good business...

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It's all good!

Ok, I am a bit younger than you. i am 44. YOU don't get it. I know all about streaming video and audio. It's amazing that whatever karaoke mfrs get into you jump on like a dog in heat, whether it's a good thing or not. What I am trying to tell you is that when the day comes that you retire from doing karaoke shows, what do you have?? All you have, as an asset is your equipment. You have no music with the cloud, unless you keep paying for it. At least with downloads you still have music files that stay on your computer. When I am watching a Netflix movie, I am not expecting to keep it. But watching movies is not a business, whereas Karaoke IS. In business you want to build assets. In iTunes I am BUYING music files, not just streamed music. I get to keep those files, even if I uninstall iTunes. You stop paying for your cloud and you lose ALL the music you were using. I download Karaoke from Tricerasoft. Those songs are mine to keep, they aren't cloud music. Do you get it, yet??

BTW, I have a HUGE CD collection, and a HUGE DVD collection. I use Netflix to watch TV shows, like all the various Star Trek shows. I would rather have DVDs for movies. Netflix doesn't broadcast in Hi Def.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

That's what I meant by
"Guarantee my songs will never "hesitate"."


Getting hyped up! 4 more months and then I live in Toronto!

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

Whether this is the next stage in the karaoke picture or not, let's all face it, things change, can't stop them. Those that don't accept change, slow die away. Whether we like it or not. Mom and Pop grocery stores that used to be scattered all over my hometown? All gone. Daily milk delivery? Gone. The amazing 8 tracks? Gone. Pinball, heyday gone. On, and on, and on, and on. Most only good as collectables. Thank God for the ice cream truck! Only thing that doesn't advance, free peanuts on flights!


I'm taking a wait and see standpoint here. We'll see what happens. Many who got into this biz before me spent much more money on music than I did. Those that get into it now will spend much less than I did to get my library up to 10,000 plus (not counting dupes). Same thing happened/s in other businesses. Sometimes better to join than to fight. Again, I'm not saying this is all that, but to say no just because newbies will get a better start situation than we did, doesn't help us out. Personally, I'm gearing up to join the Toronto karaoke scene. Already have a few KJ friends up here although they don't visit this forum. Be interesting to see how everything falls out here.

So, to separate yourself from the competition, it falls back to the other stuff. Good equipment, good mixing skills, have a personality and be in it for fun!

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

I take it you LIKE winter?? BRRRRR!!!

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Who needs it?

I have done research on this in the past and had some very interesting conclusions.
I have analyzed reports from a seven-day per week venue over several years to reach the following conclusions.
I’m using a seven-day per week venue because the numbers when averaged to a one day per week event will flush out on the high side of cost, due to the slow nights being the nights when the regulars are trying new songs and that adds to the only sung once total.
I’m rounding the numbers to the nearest hundred for easy viewing.
Over a one year period:
24,700 songs performances total
3200 different tracks were sung to make that total
1000 of those were first time sung
800 were only sung once
That means that 2200 tracks was all it took to satisfy 23,700 performances
Those very same 2200 tracks will be reused at nearly the same rate next year as they have been in past years, but they only needed to be purchased once.
With that base of 2200 tracks, the only additional costs are the 1000 first time sung songs and about 900 of those were tracks that were already in the library from the discs that had the popular songs.
That leaves about 100 new request purchases that if purchased individually through download would add up to about $200 for the year.
Based on these numbers, a seven day per week venue could start out from scratch with nothing but a sound system, hosting software, and an internet connection.
By downloading requests as they come in and paying on average $2 per track, the first year purchases would be around $5000, and each year after would be maybe as much as $500.
Of course these cost numbers are on the high side because with a little planning and shopping the tracks could be purchased for much less.

Now translate these numbers to a one-day per week show (as proposed by Kurt Slep at the summit) and compare to the Digitrax proposal:

Let’s compare two start-up KJs. Neither has any tracks in the beginning.
KJ1 subscribes to digitrax and pays $200 per month for a one day per week show. By the end of the year that KJ has paid $2400 and will pay the same the next year.
KJ2 purchases downloads from Tricerasoft, Allstar, and other sources at an average cost of $2 per track .
In the first year, KJ2 will have 3528 song performances and will require 457 track-downloads to meet the need costing $914. In the second year, KJ2 will require 142 additional track-downloads to meet the need costing $284. Each year KJ2 will have less and less need to purchase anything additional to satisfy the singers.

At the end of the second year, KJ2 will have spent $1198 on music.
KJ1 will have spent $4800 on music.
KJ2 could stop spending and still put on a show for another year.
KJ1 could stop spending and promptly go out of business.

There is a limit to the number of songs one could play in a show.
For a once per week show that can get 75 songs in, they will be paying Digitrax 66cents for each song played every show, always.
The slower KJ that only gets in 60 songs during a show will be paying 83 cents per track.
That’s like buying your music at 83 cents per track and throwing away the track as soon as it’s used once just to buy it again at the next show.

The price of the streaming plan is going to have to drop to a tenth of the proposed price to make it competitive.

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KNOW THYSELF

If you have an Internet connection you could synch it up on demand and then play from the local/offline version when the singer is on the stage.

-Chris

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-Chris

How long and how much weren't really covered that i recall except for a brief mention of 3 days in which to synch/verify subscription before deleting the local copy. I am sure that is configurable on their end.

-Chris

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-Chris

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-Chris

I am not jumping on a karaoke bandwagon. I have worked in the computing industry for 20 years and this is the way anything media related is moving. It is remarkable that it has taken this long to the karaoke industry to figure it out, but they are historically slow to react anyway.

I completely get it, businesses like assets. The problem with your logic is that even businesses are leasing things like software and services that they normally would have purchased outright just 5-10 years ago. If no one needs to own it because they can get instant access to it, you have no market to sell to.

Who will ever buy that iTunes library? Who will ever buy your Tricerasoft downloads? And 10-15 years from now when CDG players are being manufactured any longer, who will buy your CDG's?

WHEN the cloud takes hold for karaoke, no more CDG's will get made. No more CDG players will be made. There will be no market for you to sell all those CDG's to. Same thing applies to your huge CD music and DVD movie library. I have a huge CD music library as well but it is in the cloud. I sold all of my CD's years ago when they were actually worth something. Your CD's are worth almost nothing anymore and DVD's....well, those were supplanted by HiDef BluRay a long time ago as well.

If you want to own all that stuff, go right ahead. But you won't find many buyers for it 20 years from now when you retire.

-Chris

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-Chris

Agreed. But dropping it alone will not allow KJ's to get on board. They have to balance that existing host vs the new host vs the pirates vs piracy equation or else Karaoke Hosting as we know it know will become something completely different.

-Chris

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-Chris

Absolutely, with new song requirements at maybe 100 per year max, why would an established KJ ever consider paying $2400 for about $200 worth of music?
If this is the only way they plan to market their wares, or even their primary method, then it would appear they have no interest in the established KJ as a customer.

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KNOW THYSELF

With all the talk of what may be I might as well sell my cars as someday I will just say to some computer BEAM ME TO wherever.

I don't for see some form of HARD media not being made...maybe it's just on Flash Drive which of course CB already did or something like everyone will have a SAT phone and we won't have to worry about interruptions on our service or no coverage which I think will be coming very soon when putting up the satellites gets real cheap now that civilian company's are building the rockets to get the stuff up there!

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I like everyone when I first meet them. If you don't like me that's not my problem it's YOURS!
A stranger is a friend you haven't met yet

Chris,
I really need to disagree with your opinion. My existing libraries will have value 20 years from now...maybe even more than now, as long as the files are (also) available on whatever media is in use at that time be it a HD or some other format. Because of the number of tracks that will not be available at that time (IE Garth Brooks, Toby Keith and Jimmy Buffet songs) . With the cloud based operations when licensing expires the songs will either need to be renewed or pulled from the cloud never to be seen again (hence the talk about tracking every single play and analogies between modern digital jukeboxes and the cloud option)...with "hard media" if licensing is pulled for any reason I still have access to the songs no one else will have. Having huge libraries containing tracks no one else has (except HD pirates currently) has made a BIG difference in US getting and keeping jobs. Having those unusual tracks also attracts more customers to our shows on a regular basis. I see no need to change a business model that has worked very well for us for over 18 years....but keep in mind I was one who kept buying LD's and held on to them long after most were tossed in the landfill.

Athena

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey