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chrisavis
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 Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:35 pm |
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kjathena wrote: Chris,
I really need to disagree with your opinion. My existing libraries will have value 20 years from now...maybe even more than now, as long as the files are (also) available on whatever media is in use at that time be it a HD or some other format. Because of the number of tracks that will not be available at that time (IE Garth Brooks, Toby Keith and Jimmy Buffet songs) . With the cloud based operations when licensing expires the songs will either need to be renewed or pulled from the cloud never to be seen again (hence the talk about tracking every single play and analogies between modern digital jukeboxes and the cloud option)...with "hard media" if licensing is pulled for any reason I still have access to the songs no one else will have. Having huge libraries containing tracks no one else has (except HD pirates currently) has made a BIG difference in US getting and keeping jobs. Having those unusual tracks also attracts more customers to our shows on a regular basis. I see no need to change a business model that has worked very well for us for over 18 years....but keep in mind I was one who kept buying LD's and held on to them long after most were tossed in the landfill.
Athena Fair enough, but consider that copyright laws are ever in a state of flux and it is quite possible much of the music from 20 years ago may be in the public domain 20 years from now. Then anyone could potentially publish that karaoke. -Chris
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kjathena
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:53 pm |
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copyright laws are in a constant state of flux that is true however, most of the changes have lengthened the time a work is protected for not decreased it. Also the majority of work that did hit the limit has be re-registered by the rights holders not dropped. Music that is over a hundred years old have current protection (IE most classical music) The original writers have been long buried. With the minimal cost to protect original compositions by re-registering them and the ability to collect royalties it is my opinion that fewer and fewer tracks will fall into public domain.
Athena
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karaokegod73
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:08 pm |
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This will never take hold at $200 a month. No worries here. That's a third of what I make. If I worked every night available to me (while I keep my full-time second shift job) and got the same pay every night it would still be over 10%. No way.
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timberlea
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:28 pm |
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Quote: Getting hyped up! 4 more months and then I live in Toronto! Rip, Rip, Rip, you poor deluded man. The best view of Twanna is in the rearview mirror. There's even a rumour (yup, you'll have to learn to spell properly  ) that there is a professional hockey team but no one seen it.
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Alan B
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:05 am |
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Sometimes change isn't always good. Windows 8 is coming, which IMO is a total abomination. Made for tablets and phones, NOT for PC's. The point is...just because something is new doesn't mean it's better. The idea of the cloud to replace physical media altogether is absurd. Give us the choice. I personally, buy all my blu rays, cd's. I download music from amazon that I purchased and own the mp3 file. Yes, personally...I don't want vaporware. I don't want to rent.
Chartbuster got it right offering the best soloution with it's KJ HD Media Pro. That is the only viable way for KJ's to get music requiring no internet connection, no streaming, no wifi. You pay $200 for it just once. Not every month. And have access to songs whenever you need them. Now, if CompuHost were to sign many manufactures, the Media Pro would be all we need. Yes, that is the BEST solution for KJ's, IMO.
So, you can have your cloud and your streaming and at that price???? $200 a month??? Seems like they want to destroy us not help us. I think I'll pass.
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Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.
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Alan B
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:21 am |
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chrisavis wrote: Smoothedge69 wrote: chrisavis wrote: Smoothedge69 wrote: No matter the solution, you pay and pay and pay and come up with an empty hand. All the money you pay goes to Digitrax, and you own nothing for that money. Not a good investment. Whether you are collecting CD+Gs or MP3+G downloads, you are getting something for your money, so when you are finished, either you have discs to sell or files to sell, or just something to keep for your own personal use, or something to pass down to your kids. This Cloud nonsense gives you NOTHING for your money. It's only a win win for DT, and whatever other mfr gets involved. The hosts get nothing. Smooth - You just don't get it and that is fine because not everyone will. The concept of "ownership" with regards to movies, TV, even print media like books is changing. Instant accessibility by anyone from anywhere to these types of media are eliminatng the need and the desire by the younger generation to "own it" because they can "get it" any time they "want it". You don't own what you stream from iTunes, Zune, Spotify, Pandora, Netflix, Amazone, XBox Live, Hulu, or any of the other services. But can access it anywhere from just about any device on demand. So why would you need to have a permanent, physical original version? What value does it have to someone else that can also access it anywhere, anytime, from any device? Yes, there is OLDER content out there that unless or until it gets converted, will have value in original pghysical form, but newer stuff will never exist in physical form. The only way to get it will be to download or stream it. -Chris I get it just fine. As for iTunes, I don't stream from iTunes, I download physical files from them. i have a song when I am done that I can record onto a disc, or add to an iPod. Cloud, you have no such thing. Cloud you have vapor. I am as old as you. I come from a time of getting something for my money. I don't want vapor. And when you talk about Netflix, you are talking about $8 a month, not $199 a month. If you are as old as me (I am 46) then consider what I am saying as trying to help you along in the world of 2012 and the future. How much of what you have downloaded from iTunes have you burned to disc? And what are you playing those discs in? Or are they just archived copies in case the Internet goes down? And that copy to the iPod was made accessible because of the purchase you made via the cloud and iTunes. You have Netflix? You are arguing against something you are already doing. Go ask the 20-30 yr olds how many CD's they have, how many DVD's and Blu-Ray discs they have. Most won't have any. My 16 yr old has exactly ZERO CD's. My 13 yr old.....Zero. My 24 yr old sold what she had to a 1/2 price book store years ago and picked up a Zune subscription and replaced it all instantly and gained access to millions more in the same process. You can argue against it all you want, but are in the minority already. The days of burning to disc and then writing on them with a Sharpie are over. But while we are at it, I have an Atari 2600, an 8-track player, a Sony Walkman, and a rotary telephone for sale....  -Chris Chris, I could give a rat's **s what the kids are doing. If it works for them great. I'm just saying we should have a choice. Not just one way or the other. Many of us want to buy and own a physical item. One that we have in our possession. Tablets and Kindle's are the new way to read books, right? Many people love them. BUT...Books, that's right, BOOKS aren't going anywhere. Barnes & Noble is still around. And many people would rather own, and hold a real book. Wow imagine that. So, again...we should have a choice. Not one way or the other. Chris, stop being a fan boy. Wake up and smell the coffee. 
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Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.
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chrisavis
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:27 am |
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@kjathena - There is also the consideration that 20 years from now musical tastses will likely be different. There is a LOT of great music that has been forgotten or simply falls out of style. I will be happy when that happens to "Total Eclipse of the Heart" and "Don't Stop Believin'". If I never hear them at karaoke again......cheer!
I am going to stick with my stance and prediction (not to mention the trend in pricing I have seen in just the past few years) that physical media is losing its value and will ultimately be unsaleable.
@karaokegod - I don't think anyone disagrees with you on this point. If they stick with the $199/mo piece, I don't see KJ's buying in. Maybe clubs will and maybe we see a shift from KJ's hauling gear in to clubs supplying everything and just hiring a body to run it all.
No matter what, the industry is changing.
-Chris
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chrisavis
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:34 am |
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Alan B wrote: chrisavis wrote: Smoothedge69 wrote: chrisavis wrote: Smoothedge69 wrote: No matter the solution, you pay and pay and pay and come up with an empty hand. All the money you pay goes to Digitrax, and you own nothing for that money. Not a good investment. Whether you are collecting CD+Gs or MP3+G downloads, you are getting something for your money, so when you are finished, either you have discs to sell or files to sell, or just something to keep for your own personal use, or something to pass down to your kids. This Cloud nonsense gives you NOTHING for your money. It's only a win win for DT, and whatever other mfr gets involved. The hosts get nothing. Smooth - You just don't get it and that is fine because not everyone will. The concept of "ownership" with regards to movies, TV, even print media like books is changing. Instant accessibility by anyone from anywhere to these types of media are eliminatng the need and the desire by the younger generation to "own it" because they can "get it" any time they "want it". You don't own what you stream from iTunes, Zune, Spotify, Pandora, Netflix, Amazone, XBox Live, Hulu, or any of the other services. But can access it anywhere from just about any device on demand. So why would you need to have a permanent, physical original version? What value does it have to someone else that can also access it anywhere, anytime, from any device? Yes, there is OLDER content out there that unless or until it gets converted, will have value in original pghysical form, but newer stuff will never exist in physical form. The only way to get it will be to download or stream it. -Chris I get it just fine. As for iTunes, I don't stream from iTunes, I download physical files from them. i have a song when I am done that I can record onto a disc, or add to an iPod. Cloud, you have no such thing. Cloud you have vapor. I am as old as you. I come from a time of getting something for my money. I don't want vapor. And when you talk about Netflix, you are talking about $8 a month, not $199 a month. If you are as old as me (I am 46) then consider what I am saying as trying to help you along in the world of 2012 and the future. How much of what you have downloaded from iTunes have you burned to disc? And what are you playing those discs in? Or are they just archived copies in case the Internet goes down? And that copy to the iPod was made accessible because of the purchase you made via the cloud and iTunes. You have Netflix? You are arguing against something you are already doing. Go ask the 20-30 yr olds how many CD's they have, how many DVD's and Blu-Ray discs they have. Most won't have any. My 16 yr old has exactly ZERO CD's. My 13 yr old.....Zero. My 24 yr old sold what she had to a 1/2 price book store years ago and picked up a Zune subscription and replaced it all instantly and gained access to millions more in the same process. You can argue against it all you want, but are in the minority already. The days of burning to disc and then writing on them with a Sharpie are over. But while we are at it, I have an Atari 2600, an 8-track player, a Sony Walkman, and a rotary telephone for sale.... -Chris Chris, I could give a rat's **s what the kids are doing. If it works for them great. I'm just saying we should have a choice. Not just one way or the other. Many of us want to buy and own a physical item. One that we have in our possession. Tablets and Kindle's are the new way to read books, right? Many people love them. BUT...Books, that's right, BOOKS aren't going anywhere. Barnes & Noble is still around. And many people would rather own, and hold a real book. Wow imagine that. So, again...we should have a choice. Not one way or the other. Chris, stop being a fan boy. Wake up and smell the coffee. Those kid's are setting the expectation for all things to come. If you aren't watching, listening, and learning from them, then you are missing out on a lot of big picture items. I prefer books too, but I bought a Kindle. The demise of the traditional PC/Laptop was signaled with the massive adoption of the Smartphones, then the iPad. Windows 8 will seal the deal. Btw I like choice too.....I would love for every piece of music I own to be on vinyl. Buy that ain't happening..... -Chris [edited for spelling, grammar and clarity]
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Last edited by chrisavis on Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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leopard lizard
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:09 am |
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I'm thinking of the ramifications of an ever changing song list--yeah, I had it last week....or do I still have it??? You want to look at a song list and get ideas? Well, just think of one and ask me--it's all in the cloud. It's fine for people who just want to listen to what they want when they want but not so fine for trying to run a business. Even if you "tether" you would have to know in advance what to "tether." I didn't get to watch that the future was streaming as we couldn't stream it with what is available out here so maybe I am missing something.
As for ownership, someone still owns it. It is just that instead of a lot of us little people down here having a piece of it, a few at the top own and control it all. What would benefit a host is having downloads be legal. We don't need anything fancier.
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karaokegod73
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:34 am |
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The best thing we can do is hope the bar owners never find out about it. I know mine won't, she likes things the way they are.
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ripman8
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:02 pm |
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Smoothedge69 wrote: ripman8 wrote: timberlea wrote: How about the biggest problem, the internet. What do you do if for some reason you can't connect, the server goes down, etc. I do not want to have to rely on the net to do my job. The only thing I have to worry about is a power outtage and if that happens everything shuts down. If the net shuts down only you shut down. That's what I meant by "Guarantee my songs will never "hesitate"." Getting hyped up! 4 more months and then I live in Toronto! I take it you LIKE winter?? BRRRRR!!! Obviously you don't have a clue about the area. Barely different from my current home area.
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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]
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ripman8
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:11 pm |
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timberlea wrote: Quote: Getting hyped up! 4 more months and then I live in Toronto! Rip, Rip, Rip, you poor deluded man. The best view of Twanna is in the rearview mirror. There's even a rumour (yup, you'll have to learn to spell properly ) that there is a professional hockey team but no one seen it. Not a big hockey fan anyway ol' buddy! I've spent more than a year of my life up here over the past 10 years, I know what I'm getting into. 2 more years and I can dig into my retirement fund without paying a penalty, and none of it will go straight to health care premiums! And the cost for a wedding DJ up here? More than double what it is in Iowa. Just gotta get over the traffic difference!
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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]
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Smoothedge69
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:30 pm |
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chrisavis wrote:
Those kid's are setting the expectation for all things to come. If you aren't watching, listening, and learning from them, then you are missing out on a lot of big picture items.
I prefer books too, but I bought a Kindle. The demise of the traditional PC/Laptop was signaled with the massive adoption of the Smartphones, then the iPad. Windows 8 will seal the deal.
Btw I like choice too.....I would love for every piece of music I own to be on vinyl. Buy that ain't happening.....
-Chris
Vinyl? Really. I was so glad when vinyl went away. All that crackling and popping was terrible. Then we got tapes. The hissssssssssss was horrible, but if you used the Dolby noise reduction you would lose the treble in the music. I loved it when CDs came out. I love my music files, too. One of my favorite possessions is my iPod. I only have a 1gb shuffle, but I love it. I can fit 9 hours of music on a device I clip on my shirt. Give me wireless earbuds, and my world would be perfect. As for kids setting expectations, kids are lazy. They don't want to hold a book to read. They don't want to own a disc. They want instant gratification. I agree with LeopardLizard, the BEST solution is downloads. You buy them, you own them. They don't go away. I am picturing cloud problems. " Hey Bobby, can I sing Love Hurts?" "Sorry John, it's no longer available." "But I sing it every week." " There must have been a licensing issue." "I will go somewhere else." " Go ahead, but if I don't have it in the cloud, no one will." " Crap!!!" That may become a popular conversation. Customers will not be happy about losing songs they like to sing, randomly.
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karaokegod73
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:04 pm |
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If you'd owned a quality turntable then you would know the true quality of vinyl media.
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leopard lizard
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:11 pm |
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As a consumer, I only want to deal with getting the song and processing it into the system once. I don't want it coming or going or having to remember to log on every 3 days to keep it.
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wiseguy53
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:00 pm |
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chrisavis wrote: Smoothedge69 wrote: chrisavis wrote: Smoothedge69 wrote: No matter the solution, you pay and pay and pay and come up with an empty hand. All the money you pay goes to Digitrax, and you own nothing for that money. Not a good investment. Whether you are collecting CD+Gs or MP3+G downloads, you are getting something for your money, so when you are finished, either you have discs to sell or files to sell, or just something to keep for your own personal use, or something to pass down to your kids. This Cloud nonsense gives you NOTHING for your money. It's only a win win for DT, and whatever other mfr gets involved. The hosts get nothing. Smooth - You just don't get it and that is fine because not everyone will. The concept of "ownership" with regards to movies, TV, even print media like books is changing. Instant accessibility by anyone from anywhere to these types of media are eliminatng the need and the desire by the younger generation to "own it" because they can "get it" any time they "want it". You don't own what you stream from iTunes, Zune, Spotify, Pandora, Netflix, Amazone, XBox Live, Hulu, or any of the other services. But can access it anywhere from just about any device on demand. So why would you need to have a permanent, physical original version? What value does it have to someone else that can also access it anywhere, anytime, from any device? Yes, there is OLDER content out there that unless or until it gets converted, will have value in original pghysical form, but newer stuff will never exist in physical form. The only way to get it will be to download or stream it. -Chris I get it just fine. As for iTunes, I don't stream from iTunes, I download physical files from them. i have a song when I am done that I can record onto a disc, or add to an iPod. Cloud, you have no such thing. Cloud you have vapor. I am as old as you. I come from a time of getting something for my money. I don't want vapor. And when you talk about Netflix, you are talking about $8 a month, not $199 a month. If you are as old as me (I am 46) then consider what I am saying as trying to help you along in the world of 2012 and the future. How much of what you have downloaded from iTunes have you burned to disc? And what are you playing those discs in? Or are they just archived copies in case the Internet goes down? And that copy to the iPod was made accessible because of the purchase you made via the cloud and iTunes. You have Netflix? You are arguing against something you are already doing. Go ask the 20-30 yr olds how many CD's they have, how many DVD's and Blu-Ray discs they have. Most won't have any. My 16 yr old has exactly ZERO CD's. My 13 yr old.....Zero. My 24 yr old sold what she had to a 1/2 price book store years ago and picked up a Zune subscription and replaced it all instantly and gained access to millions more in the same process. You can argue against it all you want, but are in the minority already. The days of burning to disc and then writing on them with a Sharpie are over. But while we are at it, I have an Atari 2600, an 8-track player, a Sony Walkman, and a rotary telephone for sale.... -Chris Chris... first let me say great job on your OP, very informative. But now I have to agree with Smooth. He considers a digital karaoke song track as a physical object and so do I. Once I buy an MP3+G I have it forever as long as I don't delete it or lose it somehow because I forget to back it up. Whether or not it ever gets burnt to a disc is immaterial. The point is that I don't have to pay for it again next month in order to keep it. With the cloud you are buying nothing that you can keep and you must keep on paying for it month after month or it's gone.
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Karaoke Lurker
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:51 pm |
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Like many of you, I like the idea of owning my karaoke tracks. That being said, I agree with Chris that the times they are a changin'. Like Athena, I am going to take a wait and see approach.
The part I don't like? That the real possibility exists that if you want new tracks from the best manus, you are going to have to purchase the cloud. That kind of frosts my behind.
The other thing that frosts my behind is this cloud buy-in is going to instantly give pirates what we had to work years to get. That is wrong, wrong, wrong. I am learning to accept what I cannot change, though. This is inevitable.
But the access to new content? If it comes to pass the way it seems it is going to, it is a slap in the face to long time kj's that helped build the industry, IMO.
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Smoothedge69
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:02 pm |
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Willametteduck wrote: Like many of you, I like the idea of owning my karaoke tracks. That being said, I agree with Chris that the times they are a changin'. Like Athena, I am going to take a wait and see approach.
The part I don't like? That the real possibility exists that if you want new tracks from the best manus, you are going to have to purchase the cloud. That kind of frosts my behind.
The other thing that frosts my behind is this cloud buy-in is going to instantly give pirates what we had to work years to get. That is wrong, wrong, wrong. I am learning to accept what I cannot change, though. This is inevitable.
But the access to new content? If it comes to pass the way it seems it is going to, it is a slap in the face to long time kj's that helped build the industry, IMO. To Hell with the piracy issue. That is the least of the problem here. The mfrs want to take the industry out of the hands of the hosts and give it to the venues. The mfrs are just out to make more money for themselves. They don't care about piracy, except for what it has taken out of THEIR pockets. This proves it. They don't care that the KJs were hurt.
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Paradigm Karaoke
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Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:34 am |
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may not be it, but..........
"there are tons of pirates, we cant sue them successfully, so lets make them customers. the legal guys have already bought our stuff, so lets do what we gotta do to sell the pirates our stuff and compete head to head with our long ago customers. we already got THEIR money."
technology is advancing at an alarming rate, but i think using the same "license plating" technology on downloaded and purchased tracks would be a better option for everyone involved. we still get to use our already purchased tracks, and buy what we need with the exact same security of the license plate that the manus need to feel safe, but we would still get to keep what we pay for. the fact that they are thinking at all about technology is great, i think this is a miss though. what would be the downside to license plating downloaded tracks instead of rented tracks?
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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens
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Bazza
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Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:39 am |
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chrisavis wrote: The days of burning to disc and then writing on them with a Sharpie are over. But while we are at it, I have an Atari 2600, an 8-track player, a Sony Walkman, and a rotary telephone for sale.... Yup! I've been saying this for years. The steam engine has replaced your horse, Grandpa.
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