Karaoke Forums

Athena:you are mistaken. Sunfly, Zoom and SBI no longer get there licensing from the prs to sell karaoke in the US and Canada.. They get it DIRECTLY from the publishers. This has been confirmed by several people, including myself but if you want to check for yourself, the manufactures have confirmed this.

However, even with that being the case it is COMPLETELY irrelievant. UK karaoke producers are NOT responsible for the licensing of downloads in the US and Canada. They simply sell content to whomever they wish. The people who actually sell the downloads are responsible for obtaining the proper licensing. Which btw is EXACTLY the same thing as what Digitrax will be doing.

Tricerasoft has stated in writing that there downloads are licensed for KJ USE. that means commercial use. It is even in there TOS. Now if you choose to disbelieve them, that's your business and right. But there is no good reason for them to lie, because anyone can go back and show what they have stated in writing so if anyone actually got sued, that would be a good reason to later go after Tricerasoft. A smart business owner would not subject themselves to such openings.. And whatever you may say about Mr. Gai Marcos HE IS NOT A STUPID MAN!!

-James

a little off topic here
but i cant wait for the day when the big boys
say the he## with sound choice and all the other karaoke companys
and say no more
and start making there own karaoke tracks
that day is coming
its just not coming as fast as i would like to see it
i would be more then happy to start buying from the big boys
that sure would shut up the cheerleaders
and put a stop to all this crap
see ya

James,
Thank you for responding...I personally do not believe what the manufactures state without verifying the info. Lets see what info I receive from the publishers. I have selected 12 current songs from a cross selection of publishers and Manufactures/resellers.....lets see IF the resellers or manufactures really did license the tracks for downloads here in the USA. I am willing to accept the possibility that this has been done.
I have not spoken with Mr. Gai Marcos and I agree a smart business person would not leave themselves open to the problems lying would bring....I have however seen much worse done

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

Kjathena,

If Sound Choice refuses to disclose terms of their licensing agreements with the publishers, why do you think the publishers will reveal that to you? Harringtonlaw has pretty much said it was none of our business to know the licensing terms. I'll be interested to see your results.

Are you with Tricerasoft?? If so, would you please tell KJAthena and the other naysayers here how you are allowed to sell karaoke downloads to us in the states?? PLEASE. I am tired of this argument, and I want to help you get more customers.

_________________
I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

surprisingly as I have found in the past publishers are happy to answer general questions, such as have you allowed ANY U.S. download licensing for (insert song here)...they may not care to give any details however. And I must admit you do have to be persistent AND insure you are communicating with the proper person.

Anyone can send the same requests for information that I am sending and get the answers themselves

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

Rick, why would publishers/copyright holders have to release details?

KJ: Does Manu A have permission to do your Song B?

Pub: Yes (or no)

The KJ needs no further info. Just the yes or no.

_________________
You can be strange but not a stranger

My question is even simpler than that

KJ: Does any manufacture or reseller have your permission to distribute (insert song here) for downloads in the U.S.A

Pub: Yes or No

I am following through on this issue to find out. The answers will either :
1.Clarify the legal use of downloads in the USA
2.Clarify the basis of NON-legal use
OR
3. Become a circle jerk where manufactures try to place the licensing requirement on the resellers and the reseller try to place the licensing requirement on the manufactures.

Just so everyone is clear on my standing on downloads....I am all for them IF they are legal. It is my opinion that legal downloads will make it easier for ALL involved. I find myself hoping that some sort of licensing agreement HAS been reached since I first started investigating. Until I can verify that legal licensing does exist for downloads in the USA I personally am not willing to accept the liability.

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

Well, this is fun- completely uninformative- but fun.....

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

It appears to me the US laws have been written, re-written and modified to a point that nothing with regard to music or films are legal aside from paying for it. I am not a lawyer and I don't pretend to be so this is my layman's take on what has happened over the years to get US to this mess.

The phonograph player was the perfect medium for the music industry and it may have been their downfall. They made the records, we played them, we broke them and bought more. Recreating them or duplicating them wasn't a wide spread option and that was the standard the music industry started with and wished to uphold. But people wanted their music on the go and radio only went so far to satisfy. Then the tape decks were born. With tape, music could be played in the car or more easily at home and eventually in the back pack with less chance of damaging it. Of course the music industry pushed the eight track, mainly, because they controlled it just like the records. But you had to play sections and if a song was in the middle of a section, you had to wait for the clunk. I remember getting so used to the clunk that I'd hear a song on the radio and get messed up because I was waiting for the clunk. Anyway, that was when the music industry first started taking note. People weren't having to re-buy and that was lost sales. But what was worse, the cassette tape came along and people were able to make copies. Copies? Oh no! Major lost sales! They are then able to get laws passed to make copies illegal and they were probably completely unopposed. Problem.. How to enforce the laws. What was even worse is consumers were able to take tracks from different albums and put them on the same cassette. MIX TAPES!! Plus, tapes got long enough to fit two albums worth on one cassette. But the biggest thing was people were able to record directly off the radio. That meant NO sale. I remember a few radio stations that advertised they did not talk over the song and announced when songs were coming up so people could know when to start recording. I imagine there were laws put in place to stop that because it ended very very quickly. I think I remember them trying to get the tape recorders banned altogether first but that was opposed by the large electronics makers who had invested in the technology. So they decided if you can't beat them join them and they started producing the music on cassettes. But one thing people didn't like about cassettes was the quality and I bet they had a lot to do with that. consumers wanted the album quality at home and to be able to record it themselves for portability.

Music became extremely popular along the way and other people started performing the same songs as the major artists at the local level. More laws to stop them, but again, almost impossible to enforce (at the time).

So all these laws and they were only able to make a small dent in their problem. So they changed course and decided to fix the problem with... Technology.. So what do people like? Music quality. Portable, more durable: CDs.. Plus, consumers couldn't duplicate them! yet.. But then the personal computer came along and someone thought it would be nice to be able to play the CDs right off the PC. Hey, while we are at it, why not just put the songs right on the PC? Thus, the largest problem yet came about which meant more unopposed laws that were almost impossible to enforce. I would guess they attempted to ban CD players for the PC but I would guess the electronics makers were quick to step up.

Somewhere in this area a second tier entity comes about in the form of Karaoke producers. The artists are against the entire endeavor as who wants their great songs performed badly by drunks to a drunken crowd? That is THEIR job.. So this next level of producers show up and start recreating songs of others without the vocals. Some may have paid for full rights to the music and lyrics for some or all of the songs, some may have partial rights, some probably didn't get any rights at all and it's hard to know who is who is who. Now back to the issue of the huge no no of copying files to a computer. I could make a point that the SC's of the world have been stuck in this ditch for far too long and their attempt to impede the movement of Karaoke to the file environmental may have cost them as much or more than the pirates. Anyone remember the changes they made to some of their discs? That had to cost them quite a lot and got them pretty much no where. Ah, but back to the pirates...

This really is a major issue even for the major music labels because something new called file sharing came about. More laws\changes, yada yada yada. But this time, they have someone on the hook they can go after unopposed and they are able to successfully make major ground by shutting down the file sharing sites. They are able to get some of the end users but still didn't make much of a dent in it as people are still able to pass files to each other in all sorts of ways. So, again after more laws have failed, they turn to... Technology. If people want files, why not give them files directly? let's make it as easy to buy them as it is to copy them. Let's make it easier. Hey, it turns out it wasn't that people didn't want to pay, they just wanted to be able to get to their music in the shortest path possible. Some encrypt, some don't and I don't think it has mattered much. Some have found it profitable to stream without even selling the actual music. WOW... Meanwhile, back on the Karaoke front, a different form of "file sharing" pops up in the form of external drives loaded with songs. And people buy them! Why not; it's much easier then buying CDs and going through the trouble of making the files themselves. THAT is a ton of work. Major problem: buying these discs is on par with paying for an internet connection and getting the songs for free and that IS a major no no. So the major question I've had is why did they not go after the HD makers? Or if they did, why did it not help? I think the answer probably has to do with their own legality issues of making the songs but it's just a guess.

I'm sure some will be able to pick all this to bits and go right ahead. I know it probably isn't totally on track but I think it's closer to the track than not and it would be hard to change my mind on the over all points.

So in the end I would suspect that no matter what you do at a show, there could be some sort of legal issue. There is also laws against walking down the street backward eating a ice cream cone somewhere and I bet you can find a law against milking a moose in the city limits somewhere as well. The issue is whether it is productive to attempt to enforce all these laws to the letter where time and time again the better answer has been technology. There is probably a reason the record labels haven't turned much of an eye toward karaoke and it's probably because they don't think there is that much money in it. That may change and that may not but at this point, I just don't see them doing anything about what's been done so far. They could get more laws or find ones they already have, but is it worth it? If they did decide to turn an eye toward it I doubt it would be at the lowest level but do we rely on that? As for the second tier guys, please see history and check your own glass house because if the labels want to go after anyone, it would probably be you.

Well here we go. Since it appears that it's going to take a pretty long time for other researchers to get their data together, I have taken the liberty of contacting a publisher myself. And in this case it is a very large publisher – whose name I will not reprint here – So if you want to take the position that this is some deranged invention, you certainly have my permission to do so.

So that you'll know exactly what I asked the publisher, below is exactly what was conveyed:



Here is the answer I received from the publisher. You can decide what it means for you:



I have removed a portion of this e-mail which was specific to DigiTrax and was not related to the subject of licensing for download ownership or streaming.

Let the name-calling and hammer-throwing begin....

As I have stated before, I believe it is not a stretch to conclude that a "loophole(s)" has been found in which to exploit the libraries involved in order to proceed with this "cloud" project. Whether or not it will get closed up remains to be seen.

I'm wondering if now that you have opened these publishers eyes that they will be taking a closer look at Digitrax and others that have the D/L or Streaming functions.

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I like everyone when I first meet them. If you don't like me that's not my problem it's YOURS!
A stranger is a friend you haven't met yet

your post
I'm wondering if now that you have opened these publishers eyes that they will be taking a closer look at Digitrax and others that have the D/L or Streaming functions.

i sure hope so i think streaming karaoke should be stoped dead in its tracks
i have no problems with D/L

when questioning the publishers you do risk of "waking the sleeping dragons"...it remains to be seen if the dragon will just go back to sleep or start spewing fire. It is possible that some may offer wording to allow for DL/streaming and others may not. I have not received any replies to the emails I sent 2 days ago as of this time but I will be following up.

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

I saw a post on FB from a local host that ASCAP is up in this area looking to ammend contracts (increase fees) with current karaoke clubs to include lyrics swiping and bust those clubs that do not have any licensing.
Don't know if it's fact or not, but ASCAP does come through every few years. I had a club shut down entertainemt for two weeks a few years back while they acquired licensing.

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ASCAP and BMI are running sweeps in many areas(including ours)....after seeing/hearing similar stories I did contact them directly and ask if this was true.....they assured me it was not. They are however checking to see that clubs providing karaoke are paying for the karaoke add-on to the usual licensing.

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

kjathena you wrote
when questioning the publishers you do risk of "waking the sleeping dragons"...it remains to be seen if the dragon will just go back to sleep or start spewing fire

so
why would you write something like this
you say sound choice and chartbusters are legal
and you have the paper to prove it to your shows
so why would you care about if they wake up

i for one would love the dragon to wake up and start kicking butt

it's time they shut down companys like sound choice
and the others
AND START MAKING THERE OWN KARAOKE TRACKS !!!!

at least when i buy from the big boys i know what i am getting is legal

Mike D they wont start making the tracks themselves.....not in my lifetime at least and I hope I have quite a few years left.

I don't really care if the "sleeping dragons" are awake....I just want this issue of downloads to be settled one way or the other

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

dont be so sure

i happin to know for a fact some of them have been looking hard at this over the last 6 months
and are talking about starting a new company

that they can control where the karaoke tracks will be made with org backing tracks muis lead singer

and it will be sold like itunes
no middle man to up the price