Karaoke Forums

#1. There is no need for an audit.
(There, I'm the one that said there was no need for an audit.)


#2. Yes.


#3. I like them both.



Once again you are confusing the difference between "buying a disc" and "buying a song." You believe that in order to "buy a song" you must have a corresponding "disc" to go with it.

Remember that what you are purchasing from these manufacturers is the "license" to use "their intellectual property" right? How often are we reminded that the plastic disc is only the delivery method? But the problem the manufacturers have now is keeping track of who has already purchased that license because they've kept no records all these years. So, the easiest thing to do is to call the plastic disc "the license" to use what is recorded on it. Suddenly the plastic carrier now becomes a method to validate intellectual property somehow?

Using that logic, one could say that if you have a portion of a broken disc, you should be able to use those songs, after all, "intellectual property" can't be physically broken or even wear out... like the plastic carrier disc can... right? A failure to keep track of who these manufacturers have received monies from (or "licensed") is not the customer's fault or even responsibility, but now SC wants to "rewind time" to compensate for their own failure and place the burden of proof on the customer who's responsibility ended when they paid SC.

Let's say you own a laptop that contains a program (intellectual property) like MicroSoft Office, that you purchased from your local software store -- on disc. You take your purchase home, install all the programs on your laptop and set the disc and manual on the shelf with the rest of your software collection. One day, you come home with laptop in hand, only to find the fire department finishing the job of putting out the smoldering ashes that was once your house... everything gone, reduced to an unrecognizable pile of ash ... all your software discs and your filing cabinet of receipts.

Do you have to erase your laptop now that you no longer have the disc you purchased from the store? If MicroSoft stomps in and sues you for 2 million dollars, demanding an audit and proof that you "licensed" the software on your laptop are you screwed?

If you paid cash for it, you might be. However if you've registered your software when you installed it, then MicroSoft has a record of who a copy of that software was purchased from and is licensed to.

The manufacturers today that are selling via download know EXACTLY who has purchased each and every song they sell. There is an electronic "paper trail" from the purchaser to the seller and there is no need for any stupid "audit" of any kind. The manufacturer doesn't need to send "snoops" disguised as patrons to check up on you and drag you into court needlessly to prove something they should have been tracking all along.

The manufacturer's failure to keep track of their own "licensees" (or customers) shouldn't become a problem for the licensees. It's a problem for the manufacturer. And even today, the manufacturers still sell product through a method that doesn't track their licensees....

Their failure should never become MY problem. I fulfilled my portion of the equation when I handed them money for the product.

So the question of downloads and audits are actually inter-related. Downloads are automatically "audited" when they are sold, not at a later date and time.

And I still consider all of your custom disc purchases from All Star Karaoke to be downloads. All Star Karaoke made up regular CDG discs (that consist of x number of songs on each disc), and they pressed/burned (for argument's sake, let's say) 10,000 copies for sale to the General Public. They are offering you the opportunity to purchase custom tracks from their library, which consists of a choice of any song track/s from those discs already produced. They are offering YOU the choice of receiving these tracks in the form of a download, or on a custom made disc.

Let's NOT discuss choosing the downloaded format. You are ordering a Custom made Disc/CDG with (let's say) 15 songs of your choice (from their available library) on them. That makes your disc unique from anyone else. They did not press or burn 10,000 copies of THAT DISC for sale to the General Public. They only pressed/burned 1 copy... for YOU. The way I see it, in order for them to make your custom disc, they have to copy those songs from somewhere. A Rose by any other name is still a Rose. Although I am slowly becoming a card-carrying member of the 21st Century, I'm still stuck in the 19th Century... Explain to me how this would be done. Now explain to me how, somewhere within that process, a download of the song is NOT involved.

Why are some of you so quick to jump to the conclusion that labels would somehow wish to come after KJs for downloading or streaming songs? We've already been told by some of these manufacturers that we aren't the ones that need to worry about label licensing. If that's the case, why does that only extend to CDs and not to downloads? The only answer is it doesn't. For me, the obvious conclusion would be labels would go after the source not the target. Its been proven time and again that going after the target is a huge waste of time. I also see no way they could "shut down karaoke" at this point as they've already allowed for licensing through the performance entities. You can't just up and kill a 30 plus year standard just because you've "changed your mind". A huge part of how strong a copyright, trademark or patent is has to do with how much it is protected. They can't just wake up one day and attempt to protect something you haven't cared to protect for 30 years.

My point exactly Cueball... If the manufacturer is making a "custom disc" for you (the same as a download) then they don't need to "audit" that disc do they? They HAVE a record of the songs you're now "licensed" to use.

End of story.

Whether it's a custom disc purchase or a download, there's still no need for an audit. It's the discs that were sold with no corresponding sales record that's the problem. (and the plastic disc is not the sales record, it's the delivery method)

This wan not a hijacking; as I am sure u know, conversations can evolve and move down certain tangents. To not allow or expect such evolution is a bit naive.

The crux of my statement is in regard to the upcoming DT offering, which is most certain to incluude.......wait for it................
DOWNLOADED material! Yet this part of my discussion has been avoided...

Cueball,
The difference between a custom CDG purchase (from any manufacture)and a download is simple...It is the manufacture that is making the copy off masters(creating a original Manufactures Disc)....a download is YOU making the copy from a copy stored on a server.

I was attempting to explain that all the publishers I have had communication with as of now have stated THEY see a big difference between a download and a custom disc...if you own every track on Original Manufactures Disc...and yes that includes customs....you are insulated.

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

Well then, I don't believe that All Star Karaoke is making your Custom Burns directly from a Master Disc. If the Master Disc is stored on a server somewhere, then isn't that a ROSE??? I placed an ONLINE order from them a few months back for a Custom Disc, and I noticed (after finishing the transaction), that I had made a mistake, and selected a track which I had already purchased from them (on a previous order). I contacted them immediately (within 15 minutes of placing the order), and they informed me that the order had already gone out via their computer system, and they could not stop or alter it. So, that sounds to me like the tracks are already downloaded somewhere in their systems, and they just plug in your order, and PRESTO!

I'm not sure who's "reminding" you of that, but the disc is the article you purchased (from SC), and it specifically does not include a license to use commercially the intellectual property stored on it.



This is both incorrect and naive.

It's incorrect because the manufacturers have kept records as to who purchased those discs.

It's naive because it ignores perfectly normal distribution methods, including the wholesale-retail model, in which the manufacturer does not have access to know who purchases its discs. It's also naive because it ignores the fact that discs can be bought and sold on the secondary market. Just because you purchased a SC at one point doesn't mean that you kept it. In fact, we often encounter people who purchased entire libraries, ripped them to a computer, then sold off those libraries. And just because you didn't purchase directly from the manufacturer doesn't mean that you don't legitimately own them.

REALLY? You mean the insert that came with some discs that said "KJ's! INCREASE your PROFITS at YOUR CLUBS with our PowerPick discs!" was somehow NOT "a license to use commercially?" It was somehow misleading?

Does it mean; "Go ahead and MAKE more MONEY at a (commercial) CLUB when you BUY our DISCS?"

I'll have to go into the archives and actually dig out one of those inserts.... unless someone here already has one handy they can scan because I was SURE that they were marketed to me with the specific enticement that I could not only USE them commercially, but it would be a MONETARY BENEFIT to me to do exactly that.

Good thing I don't use them anymore huh? And it explains why there's no guarantee I won't be sued if I even use the DISCS that I PURCHASED from SC.....

Amazing turnabout: On one hand you claim that if a KJ is disc based (like Joe C.) then there's nothing to worry about... now you claim the discs have no license to use them commercially....

Whiplash! (again)

"That just makes me want to buy all Sound Choice Discs!" --- Said Nobody Ever.

I'm trying to decide if you really are as thick as you're portraying yourself to be or if you are just trying to stir something up.

I'm going with the latter.

You can buy a car, but if you want to drive it on public streets you need a driver license.

As you know, commercial use (performance) of the contents of the disc requires that a separate license fee be paid. It clearly states on the face of every disc SC has ever produced that unauthorized performance or copying is prohibited. That's why the clubs you play in (had better) pay ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC. This is not breaking any new ground, nor is it any knock on SC at all.

Cueball, why are you calling an audio file stored in a hard drive a "Downloaded" file What if they stored the master tracks in wave in their hard drive? That's not a download They make the custom disk upon your request using the stored file Is extracting a file from a CD call download or an extracted file into whatever format...

I agree with everything you have posted, but must amend the last paragraph. It is not hosts who OWN all tracks on original discs, but hosts who USE them to run their shows. Keep in mind that media shifting is still being played out, and thus still a gray area...

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

I think I just got Whiplash... What Intellectual Property is stored on a SC Disc? Isn't SC's Intellectual Property stored on that SC disc which I want to purchase? If I purchase a SC Disc from SC, aren't I purchasing the right to use their Intellectual Property (stored on that disc) at a Venue who has paid the appropriate fees to the appropriate agencies?

How did that Audio File get to a HD in the first place?

Cue that is correct. SC does not give the permission though. The permission comes from the Alphabit Soup Kidz. If you have two venues and only one pays the fees then you can only play at the paid up venue. SC, or for that matter any producer of any audio-visual work, cannot give that permission.

As for your "download audio file" that the manufacturer copies from belongs to them and they have the right to do so. No one else does unless they get the permission.

_________________
You can be strange but not a stranger

The intellectual property stored on a SC disc is at least as follows: (1) a set of audiovisual works that we refer to as karaoke tracks, which are each composed of (a) a sound recording (protected by copyright belonging to SC or its assigns), (b) an underlying musical work (protected by copyright belonging to the music publisher), (c) a reprint of the lyrics (protected by copyright belonging to the music publisher or lyricist(s)), and (d) synchronization of the graphical displays to the music (protected by copyright belonging to the music publisher), (2) one or more trademarks or representations of trademarks, which belong to SC, and (3) distinctive trade dress belonging to SC.

There is no public performance right in a sound recording, so you do not have or need a license to use (1)(a).

You get a license for (1)(b), (1)(c), and (1)(d) when the venue pays ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC.

As long as you are playing from the original disc, your use of the unaltered trademarks (2) and trade dress (3) in the manner prescribed by, incidental to, and necessary for the use of the original disc is a trademark fair use, for which no license is needed or necessary.

So, as long as you are playing from the original disc, and your venue is paid up on its PRO licenses, you have all the permission you need. But it is not a "license to use," which carries a specific legal meaning.

ok two more replies came in...one yes and one no...so far the score is a 3 no's and 1 yes. BTW the publisher who said yes would not identify who they sold the rights to.....4 down 8 to go.

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

Conversely, the royalty agencies are the only ones in this scenario that have recourse against any location that does not pay the fees...

As my grandma says to her hairdresser, "It seems the gray just keeps getting grayer..."

So I'm guessing that you are not going to tell us who said what either!

_________________
I like everyone when I first meet them. If you don't like me that's not my problem it's YOURS!
A stranger is a friend you haven't met yet