Karaoke Forums

Are you people out of your cotton picking minds??? Listen to every track?? Even the best ripping program can leave some glitched. If you have a scratch on a disc there could be glitches is the ripped product. You people are ridiculous!!

Disclose any nondisk SC music you have deleted?? REALLY?? Do you think anyone would be that stupid to admit something like that?? You wouldn't even know what someone deleted off their hard drive. Nor is it any of your business. Sound Choice is a God Damned Karaoke vendor. Who the Hell do they think they are making people jump through such ridiculous hoops??

Had I known that this was the BS that you people would be foisting upon your customers, I would NEVER have bought one single disc of yours! Like I said, I paid for my discs. I paid $25 per disc, which I thought, back then, was a bit much. I will NEVER pay more money to have you people snooping into my computer. I have to say that I am with Bird Of Song and Chip on this. Sound Choice should give us full refunds on all the money we spent on those discs, since we can't do what we want with what we bought. Your policies aren't meant to help your customers. They are only there to assert control of all your customers. Your business practices are disgusting, and Kurt should be ashamed of himself.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Again, preferred, not required.



Part of the audit process involves a hard drive scan, so yes, we would generally know. Those are the conditions for authorized media-shifting. If you don't like them, don't shift.



The owner of the trademark rights and, in some instances, the copyright in the track itself. And the "hoops" are neither ridiculous nor hoops, really.



You can do what you want with the actual disc--play it in a player, use it as a coaster, whatever. You can't make a copy of the disc and use that unless you get permission.

As far as "snooping" goes, we're not interested in the non-karaoke contents on the hard drive.

Thanks for clarifying what you think about it, though. Without you saying it that 97th time I'm not sure that we would have gotten it.

Wouldn't you get some kind of error message if you ripped a track, and it didn't copy it correctly? I remember that when I spent over 3 months burning copies of my CDGs (from their originals to have as back-ups), if the copy didn't complete, I got an error message and had to start all over again with that disc (and I had to trash the 1st burn).

This would be something i'd spot check after ripping - especially if it was a scratched up disc. Especially in the area of the scratched songs. Otherwise I have a notepad & mark the songs down that I see needing re-rips during a show.

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Not necessarily. Some programs have 'error correction' that will continue to rip whether it came out good or not.

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This, of course, is an absolute fabrication- or maybe just wishful thinking. The only reason that I use my original discs in my show is that I feel they look more professional on the work surface than a bunch of white labels marked "Back-Up Disc". One may back up their discs and USE those back-ups without any further permission from SC, as long as it is for single site use- PERIOD.

Why do you think we MAKE backups?

On the other hand, if one were to make copies for multi-site use they would be operating outside of licensing and liable.

This war was fought and ended in the 90's, and goes for disc to disc backups of karaoke, music, movies, and software as well.

This position has even less of a chance in court than SC's other stuff.

It's getting so deep that KJs will HAVE to take the time to research and learn on their own just to limit their liability. I will only remind folks that one does not take legal advice about a product from the people who SELL it. Look around.

OK, deep breath, and I'm off to work with a smile on my face.....and a song in my heart.
I'm back after work, and would add the following:

Just in case anyone doubts that backup discs are fine to use without any additional permissions from the karaoke producers, allow me to step out of character and offer the following:

This question has come up several times over the years and I took the liberty of saving a response from two lawyers who specialize in IP- Robin Gross and Jeremy Woodburn- who were kind enough to respond to another's question on line.

Robin Gross is an intellectual property law attorney and Executive Director of IP Justice. Jeremy Woodburn is an intellectual property law attorney based in San Francisco, California, USA.

Their response was about 5 pages long, so I will just post the core of the response.

I quote:

"These CDG owners have the lawful right to make backup copies of the CDGs they have purchased under copyright law's fair use doctrine, which permits copies for reasonable uses....."

And then:

"Conclusion: Fair Use Protects CDG Owners

The owners of Karaoke CDGs, facilities, mobile hosting services and consumers, have invested substantially in the purchase of large libraries of Karaoke CDGs. Allowing them to copy the contents of their CDGs for backup or format-shifting to hard drives would also be a fair use, and is entirely consistent both with the legislation on copying digital media passed to date, and with traditional fair use analysis ruled on by the US courts.

[1] ABKCO Music, Inc. v. Stellar Records, Inc., 96 F.3d 60 (2d Cir. 1996).
[2] 17 U.S.C. § 1008.
[3] Recording Industry Association of America v. Diamond Multimedia Systems Inc., 180 F.3d 1072 (9th Cir. 1999).
[4] 17 U.S.C. § 117.
[5] 17 U.S.C. § 107.
[7] See United States v. Elcom Ltd. , 203 F.Supp.2d 1111 (N.D.CA 2002)."

I would like to add a little extra piece from the middle for my friends who run PC based shows:

"Making a copy of a Karaoke CDG, whether as a backup, or a change in format to a hard drive, to the extent analyzed under the fair use rubric, should be considered a fair use. Under the court's ruling in Riaa v. Diamond Multimedia , it seems likely that personal use or backup copies of electronic media (like CDGs, ebooks, or DVDs) would be found fair use if the issue were ever litigated."

Again, these quotes are from two IP specialists. Also repeating, this war was over in the '90's. The Software Copyright Act was passed in 1980, which included the provision allowing purchasers of software to copy that software for backup. Since then, in the '90s this same precedent was set for other digital media product such as music, movies/videos, etc...

PLEASE NOTE: At no place in the original 5 page answer was any further requirement to get permission from the producer after the initial purchase EVER mentioned. If you purchased the disc, you have every right to make and use backups.

In other words, you are not required to contact a karaoke company for further permission to back up and use the backups of any disc that you have purchased. That permission is inherent to the purchase of the disc.

I will be happy to e-mail the entire 5 page reply to anyone who wants it.

WOW! I think I just channeled Chip! I feel all lawyer-y... No wonder I normally tell folks to do their own research- WHEW!

If I hadn't already saved it, I would have done it again.

If you want to make backup discs, and end up using them in your show, there is nothing SC can do about it. Yes, they can initiate any suit that they wish - whether valid or not ( we've certainly seen proof of that)- but the KJ will have plenty of recourse if they do.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

if the disc has scratches, just rip it with the scratches. using the disc in a player would show those glitches on the screen and that is the preferred display for SC. to correct them in the computer with error correction would be removing their quality control and displaying a superior product.

@Joe,
KJ's do not have to do any more researching than before, it is getting deep i agree, but only with one company. the rest of the music and karaoke industry is on our side allowing backup use in any format for free with no hassles. the other issue that people are thinking of is protection from the publishers coming after kj's, but they already give permission to media shift their IP to computer for pro use so no danger there. they would go after the ones who created and profited form the sale of the violating track.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Unfortunately, that one company refuses to do anything for the KJs except try to sue them, and extort money or sales of their music from them. For them it is all about having control over what they have sold. It is a shameful practice, and one would urge the owner of that company to change his ways, although that would be a futile effort.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

it would fall under if you don't like it, don't use their stuff and if they go out of business for it, then just blame piracy again instead of poor business decisions.........like before.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

I WISH SC would finally go out of business. Then all this crap would just go away, and people could stop worrying and fretting over what could happen if they used SC's products. Some of us have already proven that SC in NOT needed to run a good show. So PLEASE Kurt, I implore you, just shut your doors and go do something else. The Karaoke production business is not for you, anymore. Meanwhile, let us get back to the business of running shows without harassment.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

The problem is that it's not just SC anymore... With Piracy Recovery LLC coming on board I'm supposing that any Manu that wanted to jump into bed with them could let them do all the work suing those that had stuff on their hard drives. All PR would have to do is get permissions from these other manu's to investigate see their now new clients works being played and go for it.

It looks like the day will come that you could need permission from EVERY manu to shift.

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I like everyone when I first meet them. If you don't like me that's not my problem it's YOURS!
A stranger is a friend you haven't met yet

Joe, just to point out a couple of issues.

As is evident (but easy to miss) in the section quoted above, and if you read the full analysis (which I read a long time ago and am quite familiar with) is evident throughout the piece, their "fair use" analysis relies entirely on the idea that this use is personal, non-commercial use. Moreover, the cases they cite are all personal use cases.

They explain that they consider this use to be non-commercial use because "the owner of the Karaoke CDG, whether a professional who performs or hosts public shows or a private individual, is not trying to profit from copying and reselling the CDG." Their statement may be true as far as it goes, but it does not account for other commercial aspects of the transaction. I have never seen a case in which the act of selling access to a library of any type for money was considered "non-commercial."

While applying the "commercial" tag to a use does not end the fair use inquiry, in practice it is very difficult to get a court to agree that a commercial use is fair, because the other factors in fair use analysis--nature of the work, amount used, and market effect--almost always in this context weigh against a finding of fair use.

I also hasten to point out that trademark fair use is an entirely different subject with different rules that operates under a different analysis. Copyright fair use is not and has never been recognized as a defense to a trademark infringement claim.



A KJ does this at his own peril. Lots of KJs have relied on the analysis given in the IP Justice article you cite, and all of them to date have seen their motions to dismiss denied.

...Hey smooth, I don't log on that much anymore but I did notice that you stated you now had 38 of their discs. I thought, from several months back of reading some of your posts here, you only had a handful (maybe 3-6) of SC discs and only used those when you went out to sing at other shows, no? Did you go out and acquire more since then? I was just wondering why you would go out and get more when you don't agree with their policy and by playing their tracks/discs could raise a red flag at your show. Not trying to call you out but was just curious to why get more?

Joe, excuse my ignorance, but doesn't it say on the CD that UNAUTHORIZED DUPLICATION is a violation of the law? Why are you making such recommendation

You known, if you wish to keep your original in good shape, why are you still running your show on CD, you could use a digital file and keep your originals in a safe place and not worry anymore, just saying

Go read back in all my posts. I have ALWAYS had 38 SC discs. The last disc I bought from them was back in 2006 or 2007. I consider that a handful of discs since other KJ have hundreds of discs. Most of those I had bought for my own use, because they had songs on them that I liked.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Since the conclusion states: "The owners of Karaoke CDGs, facilities,MOBILE HOSTING SERVICES and consumers, have invested substantially in the purchase of large libraries of Karaoke CDGs. Allowing them to copy the contents of their CDGs for backup or format-shifting to hard drives would also be a fair use, and is entirely consistent both with the legislation on copying digital media passed to date, and with traditional fair use analysis ruled on by the US courts.

One might consider that your opinion that it was directed toward home users and not KJs would be incorrect, invalidating the rest of your statements.

As for KJ who have used back-up discs being unable to attain dismissals, I know of no KJ who has purchased the original discs ever having to request one in court. If you know of cases of KJs who purchased the original discs running into any difficulty, please share them so that we might do a bit more research.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

1) The problem here is the definition of UNAUTHORIZED. It doesn't mean that NO backup can be made, it means that copies cannot be made for unauthorized USE, such as running multiple shows from the copies, or reselling the same.

The authorization to make a backup copy is inherent to the purchase of the disc- WITHOUT requiring further permissions.


2) I own a JFJ EasyPro professional resurfacing machine ( which I recommend to all hosts, especially since it's now about half the price it was when I bought it) to keep my discs in shape. The only time I would need to use a backup is if the original were actually broken or sustained label side damage- which nothing can fix.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Bes thing ever made!!!!

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So, this goes back to MY earlier statement that he who has the most money wins!! So tell us, Jim, who's palms have you been greasing to get all your motions carried?? According to what Joe has provided you have no case in court because THE LAW states that copying AND format shifting, even for owners of MOBILE HOSTING SERVICES, (A.K.A. KJs) is still considered fair use. In essence, what you and your client are doing goes against the law of the land. So, I ask again, who's palms are getting greased??

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Would love to see that LAW.

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