Karaoke Forums

This has now popped up in two different threads recently. I am interested in what everyone else thinks and specifically what the position of the karaoke manufacturers is. I am going to ping SC, PHM, DTE on this to see what they have to say. (Mr. Harrington. please feel free to chime in on the SC position if you know).

For the sake of this discussion, let's assume all these tracks are used for commercial purposes (ie; they are used by an entity to generate income).

Scenario #1 -
I have an original disc. I create disc based backup of the original. The original gets destroyed, lost, or stolen.
There is no original disc of any kind in my possession.

Am I legally entitled to use the disc based backups to continue with my business?
Or must I acquire replacement originals to match the backups? <---- I believe it is this one.

Scenario #2 -
I have an original disc. I create a disc based backup of the original. The original is rendered unplayable because of a scratch, crack, chip, or whatever. It will not play any tracks.
I retain possession of the original even though it can not actually be played.

Am I legally entitled to use the disc based backup to continue with my business?
Or must I acquire a replacement original to match the backup? <---- I believe it is this one.

Scenario #3 -
I have an original disc. I create MP3+G backups of each original track from the original disc. The original disc get destroyed, lost, or stolen.
There is no original disc of any kind in my possession.

Am I legally entitled to use the MP3+G backups to continue with my business?
Or must I acquire replacement originals to match the backups? <---- I believe it is this one.

Scenario #4 -
I have an original disc. I create an MP3+G backup of the original tracks from the original disc. The original disc is rendered unplayable because of a scratch, crack, chip, or whatever. It will not play any tracks.
I retain possession of the original even though it can not actually be played.

Am I legally entitled to use the MP3+G based backup to continue with my business?
Or must I acquire a replacement original to match the backup? <---- I believe it is this one.

I intentionally left out the Scenario of - "I downloaded/purchased an MP3+ G and made a copy of it..." - because in this case the original and the backup are identical and completely indistinguishable from each other. Additionally, most of the online vendors allow you to re-download the original.

-Chris

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-Chris

I really don't understand why, in this two scenarios, I must acquire an original when I already have it. Ok, it's unplayable, but I have it and I can show it, I've paid for it and, most important, for using it, which imho it's really the point here. Thank god I live in a country where the laws about copyright aren't that insane (though recently there have been some awful changes).

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http://youtube.com/tricky2k

Typical cheerleader stance. Why the hell would anyone bother to make back-ups if they would never be able to use them in any of your scenarios?

Even Sound Choice allows the use of the "back-ups" when they sell/lease someone a GEM Series. You transfer the tracks to your hard drive and the GEM Series discs stay at home while you do yor shows. Why should it be any different with CD+G discs? Keep the originals at home and run your disc based shows from the back up copies. Lose a back-up disc. No problem. Go home a make another one.

If you lose your i-phone and have to get a new one; you just go to th ei-tunes web page and re-download all of the songs that you bought from them. NO CHARGE!!!

IT'S CALLED CUSTOMER SERVICE!!!

Because I would use the backups for shows thus moving the risk of damage, theft, loss to the backups and protecting the originals. Just like I use MP3+G for every day use now and store my originals. I can always re-rip if I somehow lose the ability to access my hard drive. But once the originals no longer exist, how can the backups be valid?

This opens the door to people selling off their originals, claiming loss, and then still being able to operate.



...sigh... I specifically excluded downloadable content. But I guess someone had to win the "I am the first to ignore what was posted" award. Congratulations.

There is a concept in economics and in IP/copyright systems called "scarcity". I will let you search for and figure that out on your own. Understanding scarcity will shed some light on why backups without an original are problematic.

-Chris

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-Chris

I believe that if you have an original in hand and a back-up, and the original gets damaged (even broken in two), you're still good. As long as you can produce the shards.

I am with KaraokeJerry on the damaged disc issue as long as I can produce the disc even if shattered I am still 1-1

[quote="chrisavis] Because I would use the backups for shows thus moving the risk of damage, theft, loss to the backups and protecting the originals. quote]

You had better read your original post again then Chris because according to the way you laid out your scenarios (2 & 4) you would NEVER be able to use your backups of original discs, unless of course you would insert the original disc into a player to see if it played and then take it out and insert the backup copy to play from, or select the mp3g to play...theoretically you would have to do this each and every time you wanted to play a song off of an original disc....hell, why then would you even make a backup disc???? I am with others here who say as long as you have the original, whether it is scratched, cracked or even unplayable you would be able to use your backup copy.

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Music speaks to the heart in ways words cannot express.

In scenarios 1 and 3, you have it stated that the original is no longer in your possession (regardless of whether it was lost, stolen, or damaged). Without the original in your possession, there is no question in my mind that you must replace it before being allowed to use the back-up copy you made. Now, whether you choose to use the original or the back-up copy (when you have both in your possession) is your choice.

In scenarios 2 and 4, you state that you are still in possession of the original (thus removing the lost or stolen aspects). It is my belief that you can use your back-up copy to your heart's content. As long as you are in possession of the original (regardless of its condition), and as long as you are not using multiple copies of that back-up copy at different shows which run during overlapping times, you are not doing anything illegal or unethical. Now, if the original is damaged, it's up to you to decide whether you will replace it or not. Of course, if the disc is out of print, you might not be able to replace it, and thus it is a moot point (you still have the original, and that's all that should matter).


Now, playing Devil's Advocate for a moment....


You have 1000 original discs at home. You took the time to create copies of these onto a Hard Drive. You are now running a show off of your PC, using those copies (back-up copies). Someone breaks into your home while you are hosting a show, and steals all of your original discs. I guess that means your use of the back-ups didn't reduce the risk of your originals from loss or theft.

Even if you had the receit for the purchase of the cdg, how would one know if you didn't sell it, and keep the receit.
No matter why you no-longer have the cdg, you could not prove you had it.
Like said, if you have it, but it's damaged, I would say you're good to go.

You want to exclude downloadable music because it blows a hole in your entire argument. Music is music; regardless of how it is delivered. If I buy from one seller, I will have that music forever; no matter how many times it gets stolen or broken or lost. If I buy the same music from Sound Choice, they expect me to buy a new one every time a mishap occurs. I-tunes knows what I have purchased and they keep a record of every sale. What is Sound Choice's policy if a GEM SERIES is stolen from someone's house or Van? Will they replace it for free or will they expect the customer to pony up another 5 or 6 grand? What happens if these GEM SERIES discs are never reported stolen but the host continues to run his shows from the tracks that were ripped to his hard drive? What if he gets audited and he no longer has his discs? Does Sound Choice confiscate his hard drive?

The thing I like about iTunes is they let you have your content on five devices. If you lose a computer to a crashed drive, or whatever, you can de-authorize that computer and re-download all your purchases to the replacement, for free. THat, to me, is excellent service. Tricerasoft lets you download to your other machines as well. That is excellent service. Those are companies that care about their customers and aren't JUST worried about their own pockets. SC? Broken disc? Oh well, we will replace it but YOU have to pay $5 per replacement. Not so excellent service.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

5 bucks ain't the bad part........too many cdgs are oop....

You are incorrect. How it is delivered makes all the difference in the world. Like I said, until you understand the scarcity concept, you won't get it.

-Chris

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-Chris

I can be convinced that scenarios 2 & 4 will allow for use of the material even if the discs aren't playable. It's that whole "possession is 9/10ths of the law thing". There was a good faith effort on the part of the person possessing the original to retain it even if it doesn't work.

Scenarios 1 & 3 though are completely different. The originals are no longer in your possession. Receipts only show that at some point someone paid some amount of money for something. There is no proof it was retained or wasn't resold afterwards.


-Chris

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-Chris

I don't think anyone here is arguing that point.

Does anyone actually read the the legal stuff? Back in the 90's the courts decided- no leeway, no argument- that single site media to same media backups were legal, and completely acceptable for single site use as intended- the useability of the originals not an issue- and assumed non useable- the REASON for the backups. Why a discussion?

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

For home, not for pro use.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

From what I've seen, a large number of KJ/DJs....are just amatuers......

I would love to see a legal brief or other binding document that states that backups can be used regardless of the condition of the originals. It would put to rest some of my misgivings from my scenarios.

-Chris

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-Chris

A bit of common sense (I know, that has nothing to do with "da law") says that i'm paying for the contents and the license to play the contents in the container, not for the container itself, which it's nothing but a previously blank disk with some recorded data, and the prove for that payment and that license is the possession of the container. Therefore, that possession endorses the use of the backup if only one at a time, of course. That's what they call fair use. However...

http://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2006/02/6190-2/

There's the difference between home and pro use, but again, if you're paying for the contents and the license for professional use of the contents, and you're using only one copy at a time (the original or the backup), you've paid for that.

But that's common sense, not the law, and probably the law says something completely different (which, imho, is crazy as f*ck).

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http://youtube.com/tricky2k