Karaoke Forums

Why in the world would you burn copies of discs and then use the originals? The originals are exactly that.....original. The backups can be reproduced over and over but once the original is "broken" then there is no original left.

There is also the question of whether or not a backup is even valid if the original becomes unusable. This is something that was touched on in another thread recently as well. I personally believe that in the case of original discs, all copies of it become invalid if the original is lost, stolen, or otherwise is rendered unusable. I think a manufacturer could make a pretty good case in court for this as well.

For those that wish to disagree, consider this.

1000 Original Discs and 1000 Identical Copies. The Originals get stolen. You may have receipts showing you bought the Originals. But you don't actually possess them. The backups themselves have little to no value on the resale market and can't be used by anyone at all without them also having the matching Original Discs.

1000 Original Discs and 1000 Identical Copies. The Copies get stolen. Simply reproduce new Copies. No one can ever question you under any circumstances about the validity of the copies because you possess the originals.

Another scenario....

Should I be using my originals discs and instead be putting my hard drive where all my MP3+G's are in storage? Would I be allowed to continue using my MP3+G's if my original discs were stolen? They are in fact Backups of the Original Discs and I also have all my receipts. Functionally it is no different.

With all due respect Cue, using the originals and storing the copies is just plain silly. You should be using the copies and storing the originals to truly safeguard your investment.

-Chris

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-Chris

Purchasing the Gem for thousands is not the only option. One could get certified although that is still in the hundreds plus cost of equipment/hosting program. While I suspect SC won't turn their backs on the disc hosts when the time finally comes, I also think that new music from all of the manufacturers is going to be more and more digital and a disc host will limit themselves just becauase the technology is moving on. And I say this as a disc host.

I can understand Manufacturers going digital. After all, I am now purchasing downloads from SBI Karaoke and All Star Karaoke. Granted, I may be ordering in CDG format, but it's still a digital download that was ordered. Plus, I have the option to just do it myself... order a download from them and just burn it to disc myself (and make a label for it). But, the bottom line is, I am making a purchase for THOSE TRACKS/THAT DISC, not just for the permission from the Manufacturer to be licensed to use it at a show (as James stated SC plans to do with their upcoming new releases).

My discs, my choice.

See MadMusicOne's post (3 posts above). He expressed it better for me.

did i miss the reason why you are not playing your backups instead?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

1) I'll tell you why I do it- simply because the originals look cooler and more professional on the work surface. Since I don't use a facade, but work in front of the work surface for better interaction, this is very important.


2) There is only a "question" in regard to SC's stupidity. Backups are perfectly legal to use in single site situations per the court decisions of the 90's- etched in stone. Anyone who says otherwise, including SC, is lying-period.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

...I agree with you that it's not the only option (The SC Gem Series). But was just thinking of the ODB Hosts using CDGs only and SC not offering a Certification Program for them which would limit the ODB Hosts from purchasing any new SC Music. As crazy as this sounds, would SC let them rip their SC Discs to a Hard Drive, pay the $150.00 fee for the audit, pass the audit for certification purposes, which would allow them to purchase new SC Music on MP3+G Discs and still play all of their original discs (SC Discs both CDG & new MP3+G Discs) off of a physical player (not computer)?

...Yes, it sounds crazy, why would an ODB KJ go to the trouble of ripping CDGs to a hard drive to pass an audit and not play from a computer? Well because SC doesn't offer a certification program for ODB Hosts (which also lists Certified Hosts on their SC Site and they feel left out), some hosts don't like running their shows from computers, some don't like the sound quality of ripped files and some believe they are breaking the law by playing from anything other than the original.... just posting some thoughts here, nothing more.

SC is the only game in town producing new, quality stuff so those who don't re-buy, yet again will really be missing out! oh, wait...

They can have all their new material. I wouldn't buy it if they WERE the only game in town. Let me rephrase, you couldn't GIVE it to me for free if they were the only game in town.

As I have stated several times, including recently, SC does offer certification to ODB KJs. In fact, we have one large ODB operator in Arizona who is certified. Certification of an ODB KJ requires that we inspect the KJ's disc holdings and equipment to make certain (a) that there are no non-original discs in use and (b) that the KJ has the necessary equipment to play an ODB show, among other steps. There is a cost associated with that.

What we were trying to implement was a technological solution that would allow that inspection to be done virtually, so that a free certification could be offered to ODB hosts. We ran into some technical problems that we could not easily surmount, so we were unable to proceed any further.

I am certain that once the new material becomes available we will be able to work out a solution that allows that product to be acquired by ODB hosts, but I cannot guarantee that it will be available to ODB hosts immediately.

If that were the only target market, then you might have a point. As usual, you focus on one aspect of it that you deem to be stupid, and ignore the major part that isn't stupid.

For operators who have SC material on CD+Gs, restriction of new material to certified operators will encourage those operators to get certified, if they are otherwise 1:1, or to get 1:1 and certified, if they are not. That has benefits to SC beyond sales.

For operators who have illicitly used SC material, the availability of material that they cannot steal, plus attractive financing options for legit material, plus the opportunity to get legal at the lowest cost (i.e., before being sued) may prompt them to get legal.




To the contrary, the majority of GEM users purchased their licenses in a non-lawsuit-related transaction. You "assume" that to be true because you want it to be true, not because you have any actual information. To put it another way, which is less charitable but more accurate, you made it up.

...I highlighted some of your post in red mainly because I was unaware that you had mentioned this several times as of recent. Mainly because I haven't been on this site very often in recent months. My fault, I will take a few thousand ours out of my time to do some research on your recent postings. However, as of a few months ago, one particular poster (an ODB Host) was attempting to ask for Certification (this was before the rumors of new music and he just wanted to be listed on the site as a Certified Host in the event that a Commercial Venue demanded or requested it) and you responded that you would be working with Kurt on it. To the best of my knowledge you guys were still working on it at the time.

...After your current posting, I guess you now offer a Certification Program for the ODB Host with a fee? As for the ODB Host that wants a Free Audit, they can wait because you're still working on it?

...Again, for me, I consider myself a Hybrid KJ Host. I play all of my Karaoke Music (that was ripped from Original CDGs along with some Pop Hits Monthly MP3+G Discs, Chartbuster SD Cards & Drive) on a laptop with the exception of Sound Choice CDGs. I do still play those SC CDGs off of a computer but from the discs thanks to the software player that allows cdgs to be played.

...Just did a quick search at the SC Site and didn't see anything there such as a Certified ODB Host Section or an application for that particular program. Oh well, guess I'm wrong again?

...By the way, I've never had ANY issues with audits (been there and done that with a couple of other brands). Have no problem with Karaoke Companies wanting to be compensated for their stolen music or showing/proving my legally obtained library. Has SC made some very good tracks? Yes of course. Could I run a show without them? Yes, I could and it's always been an option because of the other brands that I carry. Would I have a problem passing a SC Audit? Absolutely not! Do I think the $150.00 Certification Fee for shifting SC Tracks from CDG to a Hard Drive is unreasonable? Nope. Do I or did I completely agree with every stipulation in the contract that WAS being offered for 1:1 compliance? Not exactly. Just not a huge fan of the new American Law Practice of Guilty until Proven Innocent. Even a Person of Interest? Come on, just say it, "Suspect."

...One final note here, do I now see a lot more recent frustration building up from KJs and rumors of Commercial Venues not allowing SC Karaoke Tracks to be played at their venues (from postings by some KJs) about these Lawsuit being filed? Yes, I think it's fairly obvious and it does concern me as a KJ/DJ. Although you have no way of knowing it, I'm not the enemy here, I WAS a very GOOD paying SC Customer that's having second thoughts now about including the brand in my library and that's the SAD part of the story!

First, no need to apologise for anything- your assumptions are also valid, as being ODB does limit my liability. My backups are made with a standalone dedicated duplicator ( Microboards Quik-Disc), so sound is not an issue. I also own a pro-style resurfacing machine (JFJ EasyPro) so disc maintainance is much easier.

As for posting a link, you are not pot-stirring, and this request is also valid.
However, I have observed what happens here when one does post such things (like Chip): The link's source is renounced or impugned, or misinterpretation is claimed, or I shouldn't post it just because I'm ugly....

Besides,I would have to do exactly what you should do and use a search engine to find it. If you did it yourself, you would know, without any questions or debates.

I learned originally because my older brother owns a rather large institutional software company, and he was not pleased when the decision came down. Like SC, he would have preferred a new purchase for a backup.

...and before anyone mentions it, this applies to software, music, movies, or any other hard media purchase, as long as it's for single site use ( Obviously, using copies at multiple sites is a definite no-no.).

However, when searching, please keep in mind that I am referring to backups that are media to exact same media only.
I can't find anything definitive one way or another in regard to shifted media. Everyone has an opinion and something to quote.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

...Glad to hear that, Joe. I never try to intentionally offend anyone....most of the time

...Although I am slightly confused. When you say media back-ups, do you mean copying the Original CDG to a Blank CD-R by using a bin format or something different? I know with the software that I have, I can copy an original in bin format to a hard drive or disc. Just curious... Please explain if it doesn't take up to much of your time. Thanks!

I find absolutely no fault with your statements above.

1) I never claimed that SC would derive NO benefits from their plan. What I said was that the plan was not a good one for promoting SALES, and maintain that position. No business owner in their right mind intentionally limits their potential customer base ( especially to one so small) except certain luxury producers that hope to get incredibly high prices in return for the perception of "exclusivity".


2) As I stated, and you re-iterated, I was making an assumption, not stating a proven fact. My only basis for this was a lack of experience with many hosts that use GEMS that haven't been put through the mill by SC. My assumption may well be incorrect, but I can't be sure it is simply because you say so.

The way to know for sure is to find out how many GEM sets were made and sold (numbers for either that you will never divulge and up to date listing on the SC website.

On this entire forum there are what..6 or 7 ( if that many) owners who haven't been part of settlements?

For the sake ove accuracy, I will start a new thread and request input from the above.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

No problem- ever. As amatter of fact, if you PM me I will do what I would for anyone- on either side of the debates- and supply my phone number and e-mail.

Yes, by media to exact same media, I mean original CDG to blank disc without a format change.

That's the only thing that was covered. Please keep in mind that I am NOT saying that there is anything wrong OR right with media shifting, only that arguments in either direction seem inconclusive, leaving it a "gray" area.

I never bothered to delve to deeply into media shifting anyway, simply because I am ODB and have no need.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

...Cool, thanks for the info. By the way, have a buddy of mine that's wanting to drive up to New York to visit his mother. His wife can't go with him and he's asked me. Am thinking about it. Might try to slide by to one of your shows.

I want to make sure I understand: I am gathering that ODB means Original Disc Based, or something close to that. If that is the case, is it really accurate, or is it a bit misleading, if one calls themselves ODB if they have, even one time, used a backup disc in a show, since technically it is not an "original" disc?

Exactly. Backing up an original disc & using the backup is technically no different than dropping it to hard drive. The originals stay at home. An investigator wouldn't be able to tell if original discs were owned no better than they could from a computer. If a disc user is using backups, they should IMO be nailed no differently than a computer user. Unless they are TRULY using the original discs only.

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